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The fringe is a mess...(& moth protection)
fredgrower Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 6:15:06 PM(UTC)
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My newest rug. Arrived today, left by the door by UPS, bought off eBay <$650, size 8'9x4'11, barely fits in my livingroom between the couch, chair and dog beds (a very small house). The warp is silk, kork? wool, the fringe on one end is unraveling, should I push it down and tie some knots in the end to keep it from coming undone? I believe it's Isfahan, the seller got it from an estate and did not know anything about it. It's in very good condition except for the slight stain on the fringe and pile clipped short on the one small spot. Comments?









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randdmiller Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:09:14 PM(UTC)
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Possibly Esffahan. 300 kpsi?
However - the blue-grey weft has me wondering. Don't see family name.

KAD Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:17:10 PM(UTC)
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Great rug, great price! Old Isfahan, ca. 1960. Wool on Silk. Unusual border and allover design - really beautiful classic highgrade rug. Seems to be in top condition.

First two pictures:
Lower part of the rug, where the production started. You should have this side fixed by a specialist. The old Kelim border needs to be opend, the cotton weft should be removed, then it needs new knotting (Do Gereh - Two Knots) which will secure the rest of the Kelim. Then iw will look like the fringes on picture 3, where you can see the Do Gereh made of a cotton string to secure the rug at the end of the Kelim. After repair the rug should be washed by a pro, and new moth protection needs to be added. Most moth protections are washed in with water in the last bath after regular washing. The small area of missing pile is moth damage. There might be still active moth in the rug, so this might be a danger to your other wool products in your home. After securing the fringes can be cut back to a lenght you like.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



fredgrower Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:03:28 PM(UTC)
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Glad to hear I finally learned what to look for (in my search for an Isfahan) and thanks for all the help. I will take your advice and get this one professionally washed, repaired and bug protected. I posted another photo that shows how the fringe is still attached to a thick cord. Any ideas on what I should pay for this type of repair?
huruburu Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:46:48 AM(UTC)
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Congratulations fredgrower, it is beautiful. Did you find this by sifting through everything on eBay or is there a way to confine the search to private sellers?
fredgrower Offline
#6 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:17:09 AM(UTC)
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I spent hours every day searching...once I figured out what type of rug I wanted (Isfahan or Esfahan) I'd search first 'highest priced' and scroll down until I came into the price range I could afford. After that I'd daily look at 'newly listed' when I see something I like I put it on my 'watch list' as I don't bid high until the last second (this keeps the bidding under control), there are programs (BayGenie) that can bid for you at the last second that works well. Ebay takes practice, and lots of time looking. Say you search 'persian rugs' you would end up with so many listings you'd never get through all of them. For my smaller Bijar I knew the size I wanted and searched 'persian rug 30"x...", this was more difficult, as I kept having to change the wording of the size 2'6"x..., and alter the size until I found the rug. Again, throughout the searches I just "watch" and look at them later, so I don't get too caught up in the moment and just start wildly buying (except unless it's newly listed, buy it now, with a really low price). Good luck with your search, now I have to find another hobby, as my rug collection is complete. (I don't think there is a way to confine to privite sellers, I'd just click back when I came to the big rug stores...although I bought my small 'garden girls' from a big dealer, I offered a price, was turned down, waited a month, offered again and was accepted:)
Shereen Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:24:46 AM(UTC)
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Nice rug!!

I believe that if you vacuum your rug carefully (with the right kind of vacuum cleaner so as not to destroy it) every other week, you don't need moth protection. You do need to find out whether there are live moths still in there, though. I've never had this ever, although have had a number of older rugs with some moth damage. (Moth protection is a good thing whenever you store rugs.)

You can also buy these "clothes moth alert" boxes which attract the males, so they stick on paper and then you know there are moths in the house (but this will not tell you whether there are still larvae in the rug from its previous home).

As to the fringe, get a quote, but if you're good with needlework and have a certain amount of patience, you may be able to sort it yourself, by imitating exactly the stitch from the other end. (I wouldn't say this if the rug was from 1900.)

As to the end with the stain, you may consider washing and oxygen bleaching just that bit, without having any chemicals touch the rest of the rug. (You know its silk, so you can get information about how to clean silk online.) Sometimes stains can be removed amazingly easily.
KAD Offline
#8 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:13:31 PM(UTC)
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Shereen,
I am glad you never had moth in your rugs. Our workshop is fixing rugs with reparingcost between 2000 - 3000 $ each month just from moth damage. I guess most of these owners though they dont need moth protection in their rugs. Vacuuming the rug ist the minimum you can do to keep your rug in good condition - you are right to point out to use a cleaner that does not damage the rug.

A professional wash is no luxury, it is the minimum hygienic aspect you should do buying a used rug.

We recommend a wash every 3 - 5 years depending on use (Children, pets). After the wash the mothprotection is washed in. Comparing the cost of maintaining and preserving an expensive or valuable rug and the cost of a moth damage repair. it is no big deal to have it done by a pro. Washing a rug yourself is possible, but you will never reach the same outcome a specialized washing facility can, since you do not have the tools and machinery. The same with repairs. The fringes are not fixed with a needle, it is a special knotting technic. Also I would not use bleach or any other chemicals on an old or antique rug, you never know how the colors will react. Also bleach damages the lanolin in the wool. If you want to do "Homework" use a special wool washing product you would use for fine wool clothing. A mild hair shampoo (PH neutral) will do the same job without damaging the wool. The moth alert boxes are a good idea, but it only tells you that there are moth. The pheromon used in the box attracts the male moth - so you know there are moths. But the female moth is the one that lays the eggs into the wool. This is not stopped by the box.
Just to give fredgrower a idea about the costs:
We start at ca. 1,75$ per squarefoot for basic wash, special handwash for silk and antique is up to 3 $ per squarefoot - depending in colors, condittion and materials in the rug, moth protection is ,25$ per squarefoot. The Do Gereh also has different prices. If it takes up to 10 fringes in one knot on a fine rug like this it is 13 $ per ft, if it is extremely fine done (2 fringes per knot) it is 60 $. The expensive version is usually only requested on fine silk (Hereke, super fine qum, pictural). I guess the prices in USA would be not much different im the same work is done.

Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



fredgrower Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 5:17:57 AM(UTC)
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I called 2 shops here in town yesterday, the first told me $2 sq ft wash (for wool) I said this has 'silk foundation' and he said the price was the same. I asked about the moth protection, and he said it wasn't needed here (I live in AZ, USA), I asked about any protection from 'carpet beetles' (I know those are here) he said the moth protection (or anything else) doesn't protect for them and I just need to check the rugs often for them (but that a clean rug helps). He said the price on the fringe 'doesn't sound very expensive'...next, I called another rug shop, this guy wanted to know how big the rug was (I said 8x4) he said 'we're running a special right now and it's only $129 a rug', I asked about the moth protection and he said it wasn't needed here (but would do it at the same price, if I really wanted it). I am an artist and very good at pretty much everything that requires fine detail (I did think about sewing the fringe), but this rug seems pretty special and I'm going to pay the price and hopefully they'll do it right!! (About 10 years ago, I applied for a job at a rug shop as a repair person, got the interview, got the call back saying I could have the job, but the pay was low and I decided to go to college instead:)

I'm going to take in all my rugs (except for the hanging silk ones) this weekend and splurge on 'spring cleaning'.
Shereen Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:18:25 AM(UTC)
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KAD wrote:
Shereen,
Also I would not use bleach or any other chemicals on an old or antique rug, you never know how the colors will react. Also bleach damages the lanolin in the wool. If you want to do "Homework" use a special wool washing product you would use for fine wool clothing. A mild hair shampoo (PH neutral) will do the same job without damaging the wool.


KAD, I have great respect for your rug knowledge. I also never did (and would never) suggest to use any chemicals on any rug pile to clean them.
(This said, the majority of rugs these days get a very harsh chemical wash before selling, and the moth repellent is also a chemical, which some people react to, from what I've heard here.) I suggested to use Oxygen bleach only on the yellowed silk fringe without touching the wool. Oxygen bleach is used by experts of antique lace on antique silk, cotton and linen lace (in the right dilution), and it's well-researched. (Here in the US the brand name is Oxo).

The moth issue may be locally different, as fredgrower attests to. I'd never put any chemicals on my rug (including moth protection) except if it is absolutely necessary.

(In the US mothballs, i.e. naphtalin, are considered a carcinogen since 2007, I believe, for those who tend to like this old-fashioned measure.)
KAD Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:00:14 AM(UTC)
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Shereen, you are right about the use of chemicals on many rugs - choobi rugs are bleached until there is no color left. And the "antique" touch of many iranian rugs is made by adding chor bleach to soften the color. Both are rugs where you can not do more wrong, since they already had their portion of chemicals, so some more will not hurt them :-). We have the same Oxygen bleaches here in Germany, and often we get rugs that where treated with this in our shop. If the user is not carefull, it can harm silk very fast. I always try to make poeple act carefull on rugs since everyday I see damage made from these home treatments.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



rugaddict Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:22:30 PM(UTC)
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KAD, what do you use for moth protection?
KAD Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:56:38 PM(UTC)
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We use Eulan after the rug was washed. A great product is also http://www.artoriental.d...api-contramott-05-liter - a spray that can be used for protecting textiles without washing the rug.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



rugaddict Offline
#14 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 1:11:59 AM(UTC)
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Thank you for the information, KAD; I have a storage space full of rugs because I sell locally and I'm looking for a moth deterrent that's not toxic to humans.
fredgrower Offline
#15 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 5:18:08 AM(UTC)
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The spray also claims to be effective against carpet beetles, they ruined one of my rugs because I had the rug under a piece of furniture and didn't move it often enough. Now I flip my rugs and vacuum the backs weekly. I'm somewhat fearful of using chemicals, but now that my rug collection is nicer, I feel I need to take steps to protect against the bugs.
KAD Offline
#16 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 6:00:00 AM(UTC)
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The spray is extremly effective to any type of insect. It was developed by a carpet research institute here in Germany. We have it in use since at least 20 years, it helps fast and will not hurt the rug. It needs to be redone about every 12 - 18 month on the pile and the back of the rug.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



fredgrower Offline
#17 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 1:58:03 PM(UTC)
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Do you know if it's safe on the all silk rugs too?
KAD Offline
#18 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 11:13:13 PM(UTC)
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It is, but you dont need to do it on silk since rug bugs and moth only eat the wool. Silk or cotton will not be damaged by these insects.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



Shereen Offline
#19 Posted : Saturday, April 17, 2010 5:54:08 AM(UTC)
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Eulan = Permethrin is toxic to dogs. Cf. e.g.

http://www.petplace.com/...og-poisonings/page5.aspx
KAD Offline
#20 Posted : Saturday, April 17, 2010 7:29:49 AM(UTC)
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There are different products sold under the label Eulan. The original Eulan (old) was envented and produced by Bayer until 1988. Afterwards other related products where invented. There are a few types of Eulan that are licenced for textile use. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....ubstance&term=eulan
The old Eulan is off the market since it was harmful - Shereen is right about this, but as time goes by, products change.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



fredgrower Offline
#21 Posted : Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:18:28 PM(UTC)
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I've spent the last few days fixing the fringe, tried to loop the silk string around the fringe (not sure of the correct knotting technique), but what I did will hold it together, so I can get it professionally washed. There is a small area where I will need to weave in some more silk threads to fix where the fringe got ripped out (I believe I can do this with a needle)...Does anyone know where I can buy the silk warp threads that would match this rug? (Or know what size threads they use, I see them sized (ebay) either with a number or letter or even the actual thickness, (these are 2 ply). Thanks.
Harry Myers Offline
#22 Posted : Thursday, April 22, 2010 7:08:56 PM(UTC)
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Moth damage is due to a dirty rug . Moths do not eat a clean wool fiber. .
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