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Craftsman Style Rug?
jesco white Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, April 04, 2010 6:38:41 AM(UTC)
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Here's a rug that's a little confusing... It's listed as a "craftsman" style rug which is a new concept to me. I'm thinking the craftsman/mission style of architecture and design is a western movement. Does that mean this is a western designed/woven rug, from the craftsman period (approximately 1910-1930?)

Or it is a persian rug that just happens to fit that design style?

http://tucson.craigslist.org/fuo/1673925566.html

It's a pretty rug, I like the colors/design but the price seems crazy high, especially for craigslist.

Discuss...

PS: Although I'm not a collector this is my favorite forum on the internet. The knowledge here blows me away. Thanks to all.
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Shereen Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 04, 2010 2:50:15 PM(UTC)
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They mean "arts and crafts style rug", the most famous ones are made after designs by William Morris. This one, I believe, is called "The Oak Park" or something. Cf.

http://www.persiancarpet...hoto.cfm?VarCarpetID=59

and

http://images.google.com...ft:en-us%26tbs%3Disch:1

The ones on the site given may be handmade (can't say from photo), but are new production.
jesco white Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, April 05, 2010 12:39:18 PM(UTC)
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Interesting... Thanks for the information and links Shereen.

So what do you think--is the rug I posted old or new, machine or hand made? How about origin and value?
Shereen Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, April 05, 2010 3:04:48 PM(UTC)
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I'm really no expert (like some other people on this forum), and the photos are not good enough to judge.
I hope someone else will help you.

My totally non-expert guess is (i) possibly handmade (ii) probably recent and not antique. The retail value of such rugs when new is over 2000 USD. But what the value of this particular rug is (even if I'm right on (i) and (ii)) depends very much on what state it is in, and I cannot see this from the photos.
RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, April 05, 2010 3:18:40 PM(UTC)
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sheeren is on the right track with information. it does have very faint signs of being hand made, and typically these have high decorative value and would retail high, but private sell low. more photos tho. hopefully the seller will send them to you
jesco white Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, April 05, 2010 7:57:36 PM(UTC)
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I've emailed the seller for more pictures--hopefully they'll come through and I can post them.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts so far.
jahannandsons Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 11:48:29 AM(UTC)
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We sold "William Morris" rugs in the early 90s and have one left in inventory. I'm not sure that they are big sellers at present, so you might be able to find a rug dealer in AZ who is stuck with one and will sell it to you for super cheap.

Jahann and Sons Persian Rugs
4210 Howard Ave | Kensington, MD 20895
301.530.6660 | www.jahannandsons.com
jesco white Offline
#8 Posted : Friday, April 16, 2010 3:42:37 PM(UTC)
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Hey thanks for the suggestion. The seller never got back to me so either they sold it or aren't that eager to sell. Is the rug you've got in your shop hand or machine made? When was it made? Size?

I don't know how serious of a buyer I am but I'm curious to know the details of the rug you've got and a price. How about shipping?
jahannandsons Offline
#9 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 6:49:07 AM(UTC)
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Sure, no problem. The rug is hand-knotted, 9x12. It was made in the early 1990s. We bought it for $10/sq foot, so if you like it, you can have it for $1080. Shipping would be about $100 via UPS ground. I'm going to try and post some pictures so you can see.
jahannandsons attached the following image(s):
1448_B.JPG
1448_C.JPG
1448_A.JPG
Jahann and Sons Persian Rugs
4210 Howard Ave | Kensington, MD 20895
301.530.6660 | www.jahannandsons.com
huruburu Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 9:29:59 AM(UTC)
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I would be interested, if Jesco doesn't buy.
fredgrower Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 11:42:29 AM(UTC)
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Looks like a larger version on my 'creased rug'...what's the country of origin and kpsi?
jahannandsons Offline
#12 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 11:52:06 AM(UTC)
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Yes, I just saw that. Did you ever have a chair or bed with casters on it in that spot? It almost looks worn along that crease instead of it just being a crease. Perhaps a few knots of wool in those spots would fix it?

This rug is made in India. I would say the knots are about 120 kpsi.
Jahann and Sons Persian Rugs
4210 Howard Ave | Kensington, MD 20895
301.530.6660 | www.jahannandsons.com
huruburu Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 11:58:28 AM(UTC)
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Yes, that's why I was interested. Your creased rug was my revelation that there is a connection between rugs and Ireland. I think, as art + craft rugs seem to be more moderately priced, that this may be a reasonable (and culturally consonant) way for me to go. I especially like the idea they're not fashionable, which may give me some breathing space! What is the knot density like in these rugs? I'm keeping Shereen's admonition about minimum 144 kpsi in mind too (because of cat claws). I'm actually thrilled to discover these designs. Oak leaves are very emblematic in Irish culture, and early alphabets were derived from the names of trees.
jesco white Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 4:44:34 PM(UTC)
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Huruburu get out of here, you're taking away my bargaining power... Hahaha. Next time you show ask about an ebay rug I'm gonna make sure I run the bids up a little :)

Jahann let me show it to the boss (my wife) and we'll talk about it and get back to you. But it seems nice and my wife and I have an Arts and Crafts house with lots of Arts and Crafts furniture. So maybe...

Any of the other pros on here want to comment or share any insight on the rug?

Thanks so much Jahann.
huruburu Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 5:13:07 PM(UTC)
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Okay, I definitely need bargaining lessons!
Good luck.

Shereen Offline
#16 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 5:52:33 PM(UTC)
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Hi Jesco,

I'm not an expert, but thought you might be interested that this rug is the big sister-rug of fredgrowers "rug with a crease" (search "fredgrower" with "crease" this forum, and photos pop up.) It may be interesting to compare the photos.

Personally, I'm not wild about the somewhat artificial looking abrash on Jahann's rug, nor about the almost electric quality of the royal blue (if my computer screen is adequately showing it, that is) and I'm not sure whether the original rugs (see Doris Leslie Blau website for some beautiful specimens) had this kind of abrash. ((Giving you back some bargaining power ...)) Other than that - a beautiful rug.

You can also put "oak park" and "rug" "crafts" into google, and you'll find rugs of the same pattern sold, in different colours, plus prices. This will both make you appreciate Jahann's price, and make you see that the same pattern, depending on where and by whom it is reproduced, can take on quite different appearances and degrees of fineness, etc.
jesco white Offline
#17 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 6:43:53 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Shereen.

I love the design and blues/greens, but not sure about the salmon... And almost 1200 is a lot of money for me. I'm gonna think on it for a bit.

I'm also worried about the size; it'd be for like a 14x16' room with a fireplace so the rug would definitely dominate the room.

Thanks again everyone. And anyone else who wants to chime in I'd love some more discussion.
Shereen Offline
#18 Posted : Monday, April 19, 2010 6:52:39 PM(UTC)
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What I've done in the past to see whether a rug for sale online of a certain size would be right for a room is laid together rugs or old sheets or similar in colours contrasting with the floor, and make them form a rectangle the exact size of the rug I was considering. (Of course easier for smaller rugs than this one.)
jesco white Offline
#19 Posted : Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:07:10 PM(UTC)
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Jahann thanks so much for the offer but I think I'm going to pass.... Huruburu have at it. In fact I really hope it works out for both of you, that could be really cool.

So I finally heard back about the first arts and crafts rug I asked about but the person still didn't take a picture of the knots on the back. These are the images the seller emailed. I think the colors suit me a little more than Jahann's but I have no clue about origin or value. And it's used. The seller states it's in perfect condition and has been professionally cleaned. The seller said it has a tag on it with the following: #PK3333, Description- BAKHTIARY, Origin- PR on the back of that tag is says Romanian with a purchase date of '00.

What does everyone think regarding origin and value?









huruburu Offline
#20 Posted : Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:14:30 PM(UTC)
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Huru in line here like a faithful budgie credit card quivering in hand. Email me here Jahann.
Shereen Offline
#21 Posted : Tuesday, April 20, 2010 3:05:07 PM(UTC)
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I like the craigs list one a lot better, it seems to bring out the original Arts and Crafts character better.
Funny it's called Bakhtiari. This is, I'm sure, because the compartments in the field have the shape of some of the "tiles" of the Bakhtiary garden rugs.
The original craigs list post is gone, so I don't know size and price.
I definitely DON"T KNOW ITS VALUE, but IF it is as the seller states, i.e. cleaned and in perfect condition, and you like it, you may be able to get a rug for 700 dollars or something which new would have likely cost you over 2000 USD 8x10, over 2500 USD 9x12, and which for you does the same purpose.
If you want it for enjoying it, and not as investment, and it fits your needs, that is.


For roughly 8x10 you can get this for 833 USD including shipping on ebay, new and made in India: http://rover.ebay.com/ro...&mtid=824&kw=lg

jesco white Offline
#22 Posted : Tuesday, April 20, 2010 3:40:30 PM(UTC)
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Here's the craiglist posting:
http://tucson.craigslist.org/fuo/1701278780.html

I asked about size but haven't heard back yet.

The coloring really suits the room so if the seller will nogotiate down I'd be interested. But I'd still really like to hear from Rugpro, KAD, Johann, and the rest of the amazing people on here about origin/quality/value before I start throwing numbers around.

Definitely not an investment though.... Not if my chocolate lab has anything to say about it...
jahannandsons Offline
#23 Posted : Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:08:04 AM(UTC)
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Can you go see that rug in person before you purchase? The bottom half of that rug looks like perhaps it has some color running, but it might just be the photo. That might give you some bargaining power. The color scheme is quite lovely, though.



Jahann and Sons Persian Rugs
4210 Howard Ave | Kensington, MD 20895
301.530.6660 | www.jahannandsons.com
KAD Offline
#24 Posted : Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:29:24 PM(UTC)
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From the pictures I would say 8 x 10. Shereen is right about the "Bakhtiari" origin - this rug has absolutely nothing to do with a Bakhtiari. And the post of Jahann is also an important point. It does look like the color ran out, but it is a problem taking pictures in sunlight. This type of rug usually is made with very good wool and stable colors, so it might only the reflection of the sunlight that makes it look like running color. If it is 10 years old, and still looking good as can be seen on the pictures, fresh cleaned, you can go for it. Romanian origin seems to be right from the way the fringes and Kelim on picture 1 you posted yesterday. Price is rather on the upper end, but if he invested in a pro wash before the sale, you must consider this also. The only way to see if it is really good is to look at it in person.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
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jesco white Offline
#25 Posted : Thursday, April 22, 2010 4:44:42 AM(UTC)
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KAD thanks for all the wisdom you share on this forum; I'm happy you've become a part of this community. Shereen too, I really appreciate all your humble insight.

I think I'm going to email this seller and try to take a look at it. If the wool seems high quality and there is no color run I think I'll offer $800, maybe going as high as $900, using the similar rug on ebay as a pricepoint.

If there's color run or they want more than $900 I'll probably buy the ebay Arts and Crafts.



KAD Offline
#26 Posted : Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:02:00 AM(UTC)
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Good decision.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



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