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Painted, Chalked and Markered Rugs
RugPro Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 9:54:56 AM(UTC)
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KrowGyrl,

I'm very interested to know about some of the purchases you've made on eBay. Please share your experiences in regards to the condition of these rugs.

More specifically, have you noted on the face of these rugs painted, dyed or markered areas to disguise wear? How about moth damage and dry rot?

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KrowGyrl Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 10:53:48 AM(UTC)
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These are areas that I am still learning about. Your pictures did not load completely on my computer. I'll check back later and see if I can see them. I have not found much that I was not expecting. To be honest, the painting, that is new to me. I have not seen anything that looks like what you describe, the halo effect or the avoided areas. Those are pretty obvious and when I have gone over my new arrivals I would have noticed that as it is clearly not part of the normal weaving pattern. I would say I have bought 95% of my carpets on ebay from three sellers. And they all offer several photos of the rugs including individual shots of problem areas. So I have steered clear of a lot, and not been disappointed from any I have gotten from them. They have all been Good. The bad and the ugly, no uglies really, but the bads all came when I bought from individual buyers. One came and had a whole chunk missing from a veru promionent place. First she had sent me the wrong rug, then when it came, there was a shewed hole in it. That could be moth damage. It is halfway between a kilim and a flatweave. So it got recycled into "home decor" for my house. The other one was the thing I showed yesterday, the golden yellow with the black diamonds. He claims to be a store in California. I think he is new to ebay and he will get slammed with that kind of practice. I have not found any dry rot. the one I mentioned in my other post that I put in my sitting room is really, really dry and coarse but looks good in the room so I am chalking that up to an acceptable loss.

You mentioned India in one of your descriptions. I have not bought any rugs from India and read in a few places that the commercial knock offs are poor quality. I don't like the idea of "in the style of ...." in very many things. And not in rugs, not when it seems the real things are available to be had.
RugPro Offline
#3 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:20:01 AM(UTC)
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The loading might be because of the browser, sometimes you have to scroll all the way down.

It's good that the rugs you have are satisfying. I've seen 2 or 3 pieces in person which had been gotten through eBay where the colors had run so hard it actually looked like a rose colored wool was used throughout the whole rug. Although I would imagine if it's practically indetectable most people don't care.

I know hear what you're saying about the "in the design of" what would be a Persian style. It would actually surprise many people to know some very, very high quality rugs are being imported from India to this day. In fact, there are also several books which mention some Persian Designs may have originated from Indian weavings some 4 centuries past.

It is true as you mention that many of these lesser quality mass produced carpets are coming from India, however such is equally true of Iran and even Pakistan and Afghanistan as well. In all honesty, almost any rug producing country is going to have their junk rugs. Ikea and Costco for example have pieces which have given the industry a bad name. I went to Ikea maybe 3 years ago and came across their "Hamadan" rugs from Iran which were of surprisingly poor quality. I couldn't believe how awful these rugs were - disposable pieces, and quite often worse than tufted rugs. However, I have also seen some extremely high quality Indian rugs.

Some of these big sellers on eBay you have to know what to look for. I remember one piece I happened across the seller stated in the item description the rug had a signature. I looked carefully at the carpet as photographed, and when I came across the signature, it was actually a patch which was cut from another rug! I couldn't stop laughing, but at the same time, it's a little sad because these sellers exploit misconceptions buyer's have. The public believes that there is something to a rug having a signature, which is not entirely incorrect, but is really more relevant to carpets produced many years ago... But to take a signature out of one rug, place it into another, and then make the claim the rug is signed? It's just not good business. Especially when they say the rug is a 100 year old museum antique which shows foundation.

It's great for someone to pay maybe $400 for a 9x12 because they don't want to have to care when their dog throws up on it or something. But when a seller says the rug is vegetable dye, or 100 years old and handspun wool, people take them seriously. This creates a problem for the honest rug people and scams the bidders who inevitably will be willing to spend more.

I have heard many of these goods found on eBay are actually from when the embargo was in place. They're carpets which were tied up in Iran due to the import laws in the late 70's. A great deal of the stock was subsequently used in Iran, and now has become more available to the Western Markets through these importers on the East Coast.

I guess after all is said and done setting condition aside, it's pretty amazing to be able to have a hand knotted rug for $2-4 a square foot that could have taken upwards of 8 months to make.
KrowGyrl Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:44:47 AM(UTC)
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Interesting about the signature stitched in from another carpet. Amazing. Does that work for a Picasso? It's been a fascinating few months. I have spent hours a day on eBay scanning everything they have and comparing, looking, eyeing as closely as I can and reading the lingo. What is also interesting is the title line of carpets that read the same and only when you get down to the bottom of the decription do you get to the "machine made" part. Of course only a moron would buy as carpet before reading the whole listing. But what I also love are some of the smaller sellers, the individuals who list a carpet from "Tibet Egypt Morocco." I can't quite place that spot on the map. Just as a side note, there was a carpet I saw a few weeks ago on eBay that was about 5x7, not tiny, that priominently had the name of Allah (in Arabic) right int he center of the carpet. It seemed to big for a wall hanging, and would never be on the floor or used as a prayer rug. So what would it be? A wall hanging in a very large space? It was definitely a carpet, not a tapestry or other textile.
Tabriz Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:27:00 PM(UTC)
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This make problem. Many seller do not say clearly sometimes what is handmade and machine. I see this one guy from virginia I think he doesn't do this clear. People they don't always see this.
RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:33:03 PM(UTC)
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KrowGyrl wrote:
Interesting about the signature stitched in from another carpet. Amazing. Does that work for a Picasso? ..... But what I also love are some of the smaller sellers, the individuals who list a carpet from "Tibet Egypt Morocco." I can't quite place that spot on the map.


hahaha, very funny. It is a problem many sellers don't readily advertise their items as hand knotted. It's kinda buried in there I guess. As for the origin, geez, they love getting those keywords in there!

Do you have a link to the rug with the inscription? This sounds like something worth taking a look at.

I have to admit, there are things I've purchased before on impulse not reading the entire description.... ----guilty----
KrowGyrl Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:39:58 PM(UTC)
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Many seller do not say clearly sometimes what is handmade and machine>>>

Yes, I have noticed this. I steer away from anything vague or nondescript. Unless i just like it for myself as a good looking "thing." There is a not of language in the design arts that is confusing and sometimes perhaps intentionally misleading or from ignorance. I especially notice the language "I think it's ...." or "It may be ...." I may get rooked by the big seller from time to time but it's better than something that's pure guesswork. I also read the negative feedbacks of sellers. The quantity and what the complaints tend to be. There are sellers on there whose feedback says they clearly claimed one thing and delivered another. I give those guys a wide berth. There was a wonderful book I read called "OUT OF THE PAST: The Istanbul Grand Bazaar" published in 1977 by Burton Y. Berry telling of his experiences being trained in the bazaars as a young man in the 30's and 40's. The stories about the repairs and how whole loads of carpets would appear that were bought up that were being discarded and how they restored them. It sounded amazing. I'd love to know more. I was looking at the restoration sites and photos on this site. Does anybody have any favorite "must reads" they could recommend?
RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:55:47 PM(UTC)
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Great point on the readings. I'll look into getting a copy of the book you recommended.

I have three books I read recently all by the same author, Mr. Peter Stone, I would highly recommend. "Oriental Rug Repair", "Oriental Rug Lexicon" and the last one is "Tribal and Village Rugs".

"Oriental Rug Repair" is a must have book which was recently revised. Be sure to get the newest version, I have it in paperback.

For the technical stuff with rug terms and what have you, another is the "Oriental Rug Lexicon".

The third book is a must have for those interested in tribal rugs. It's called "Tribal and Village Rugs".


I know it sounds like I'm pumping his books a lot, but I read the rug repair last month and the others just followed. It's good to change up the authors a bit, I have a decent library of rug books and am always looking to add. Some others which would be great to consider are those of which are recommended by ORRA for the Certified Rug Appraiser's Exam.

Barry O'Connell has an excellent guide on Oriental Rug Readings


KrowGyrl Offline
#9 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 1:51:19 PM(UTC)
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This is great! Many thanks.
Tabriz Offline
#10 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 1:54:59 PM(UTC)
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Do you have link for this rug with signature in the middle from eBay?
KrowGyrl Offline
#11 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 2:37:49 PM(UTC)
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No, I don't have a picture of this. It was a couple of months ago. Not a regular dealer I buy from, it was an individual. The starting bid was too high for me, but I did write and ask about it to see what they might say. They were clueless and "guessed" it would be hung on a wall.
cloudband Offline
#12 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 4:57:47 PM(UTC)
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KrowGyrl, Welcome to the board!

It's very good to read of your affinity for Oriental Rugs, and glad to have you with us. I just read in the other topic about the class you said you will be taking in NYC this summer. It sounds very interesting, what's the story on this?
David Dilmaghani
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KrowGyrl Offline
#13 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:12:28 PM(UTC)
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The class looks great. It's part of New York University, the School of Continuing and Professional Education. They have a large and extensive catalog, and they offer several appraisal classes in various fields as well as museum studies courses.

Here is the link to the catalog course. www.scps.nyu.edu/course-detail/X03.9555/20082

The class starts on May 29th and runs for 5 consecutive Thursday nights.
cloudband Offline
#14 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:23:59 PM(UTC)
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Very interesting, thanks for the link!

I also took a look at your collection of rugs and photographs. Great taste in designs and colors. It looks like a couple of these carpets are from ECG?
David Dilmaghani
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KrowGyrl Offline
#15 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:39:53 PM(UTC)
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Great taste in designs and colors. >>> Thanks.

It looks like a couple of these carpets are from ECG? >>>> Yep. I have gotten several from them. What is your opinion of them?
cloudband Offline
#16 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:47:47 PM(UTC)
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I used to spend a tremendous amount of time on eBay every day. Total purchases on eBay for me has been maybe a half dozen rugs, all under 6x9 in size. All have been from individual sellers - I made sure I knew what I was getting with very specific questions and additional photograph requests. All transactions I was happy with except one which was from a semi large seller. The rug photographed 10 times better than it ever looked in person, although I ended up being happy with it in the end with a reduction to the final price.
David Dilmaghani
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KrowGyrl Offline
#17 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:17:40 PM(UTC)
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Interesting. I think I have a good eye for beautiful things, whether I know the quality and provenance or not. And maybe I am just lucky too. With maybe five or six exceptions, every rug I have gotten on eBay has been as good and in most cases far better than what I was expecting. And with the ways of selling I can fall back on if need be, I know I can sell them all fpr at the very least what I paid for them. So I am not worried there. But like I said, this is far more now to me than just buying some great things and wanting to sell them. It is fascinating to me how much presence they have, far more than the kilims, which I love also. But they are textiles. And of course far more life and presence than the two machine mades that I have for utility. Those two are mannequins, the carpets are absolutely alive. I love them! So you see I am hooked and giddy as any kid just taking off and running with something. Although I am far frm a kid.

I have been curious though about a series of Turkish rugs that were on eBay fa month or so ago. They were garrishly super bright, a product of overexposed photography perhaps. They had low KPSI. But they all look remarkably the same/similar in design and color and tone, and yet the seller talked about each one with the same language, something about being lovingly stored in a dowry trunk for 80 years. You can't read one after another after another of that same schpiel talking about 20 carpets that look like members of the same family and take that seriously.
RugPro Offline
#18 Posted : Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:28:18 PM(UTC)
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KrowGyrl wrote:
And of course far more life and presence than the two machine mades that I have for utility. Those two are mannequins, the carpets are absolutely alive.


It's so true about the difference between hand made and machine made. Some of them are tough to distinguish, I think still to this day some of the better machine made rugs are the Karastan. But overall, most machine made rugs really do sit there expressionless. The main site has a good article on the differences between the two, but the most important thing from someone who is completely new to the subject to just go with your instinct on it.

The romantic stories of rugs stored unused in a trunk for 80 years, sometimes so tempting.... Although I do know of dealers who have such a thing, but they're usually kept rolled up :)
barrymichael145 Offline
#19 Posted : Friday, October 05, 2012 2:11:29 AM(UTC)
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Some rugs are of good quality and some are of poor quality
Its hard to judge rugs on internet purchasing But if we go in market and see rugs then some marketers have disguised rot points with dyed or some other material things.
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