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Always go up?
psanchezp58 Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, November 8, 2009 5:41:35 AM(UTC)
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By way of introduction, my rug tastes tend more to the tribal and caucasian more than to the fancier "city rugs", which might or might not be relevant to my observations below. And forgive me please if this post rambles a little.


Every rug person I talk to says that money spent on rugs is money well spent, as the prices always go up. But do they?

When I go to a rug dealer, I can generally find some number of rugs I like. Room-size rugs that seem well made and attractive typically sell for somewhere around $2500-$4000 new. Yet I can find comparably attractive used rugs on ebay (from reputable sellers) or webstores like rugman for perhaps a quarter of that.

That hardly seems like prices always going up. It seems more like cars. The price of a new car always seems to go up, but used cars depreciate fairly quickly. Just like I can't turn around and sell my old car for close to what a new one would cost, neither can I do the same with my "old" (20ish yrs) rugs.

So, the question is, why does the price of a given rug not go up (a vastly different question than whether the price of new rugs goes up)? I can think of a few reasons:

1. Retail markups are very high? Perhaps the rugman/ebay price is more reflective of the wholesale price of these rugs, and therefore my observation of used being so much cheaper is somewhat skewed?

2. Most caucasian rugs start life with a low pile. After some years of wear, that low pile is even lower, and buyers don't want to spend too much on a rug that's not likely to have much life left in it?

3. Rug manufacture has improved over the years. Whereas a 70 KPSI was once a decent rug, new rugs, even for the caucasian, tend to be 100+, even some as high as 150ish. Part of this might be due to once remote tribes making rugs as a small part of their livelihood. Now, thanks to the afghan war, vast refugee camps have settled into basically professional rug manufacture, with better looms and far more practice. Unless you're a collector, why buy an indifferently made older rug when you can get a finely woven new rug with similar patterning (I'm aware that's going to sound like heresy here, but prices are based on supply and demand, and most demand is from people who just want something nice for their house). For that matter, are tribal rugs even tribal anymore? I wonder if in a lot of cases the rugs we're importing now are really from city workshops knitting tribal designs. Perhaps this is the real reason why modern "tribals" seem to be much better woven than those of yesteryear?

4. Machine-made rugs probably have little impact on the new rug market - those who are comfortable paying $2500-$4000 for a rug won't care that there's a cheaper, albeit less desirable (in my opinion), alternative out there. Those buying used rugs, however, likely are more motivated by price. To them, a machine-made rug is an alternative worth considering. And thus, the rise of machine made rug, some of which are very nice these days, has put much more downward pressure on used than new.


I'm interested in your thoughts.
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, November 9, 2009 12:05:50 AM(UTC)
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Welcome to the forum psanchezp

psanchezp58 wrote:


1. Retail markups are very high? Perhaps the rugman/ebay price is more reflective of the wholesale price of these rugs, and therefore my observation of used being so much cheaper is somewhat skewed?



Many seem to be under the impression that across the board markups in the industry are high, it really depends on multiple variables. One example, dealer sometimes specialize. If one importer who deals heavily in Chinese rugs may not get the best prices on Pakistani pieces as that's not what their focus is. In the interest of diversifying inventory, they'll still stock the latter.

As for ebay vendors - there's a reason why many of these pieces are so inexpensive. Often they're seconds goods. new carpets that are irregular, inconsistent in weave, wider on one end than the other, colors that reacted poorly to chemicals, a repair here or there, slight damage, etc.... Maybe a bright color here or there that would never fly if you saw in person at a rug store, but can easily be overlooked when viewing a 4' x 6' photo online.

Rugs that to the novice eye may seem equal, but to a trained eye are vastly different. It's easy for a buyer to relate to KPSI, that's something that's quantifiable - so when two rugs of similar kpsi, or the colors are the same, or the design almost identical.... None of it matters - it's the details that matter. This takes seeing thousands of rugs and years of experience. Take a pak Caucasian from one of these ebay sellers, and compare it side by side to a rug from an importer with contracted weavers. You will easily see the difference.

psanchezp58 wrote:


2. Most caucasian rugs start life with a low pile. After some years of wear, that low pile is even lower, and buyers don't want to spend too much on a rug that's not likely to have much life left in it?


What age caucasian were you thinking? It depends on the area of the caucuses- also now, most people think of Caucasian to be Pak caucasian. Is that what you're referencing? Buyers sometimes seem attracted to low pile. If the wear is evenly worn to the top of the knot heads, this can be even more appealing than having pile at all.

psanchezp58 wrote:


3. Rug manufacture has improved over the years. Whereas a 70 KPSI was once a decent rug, new rugs, even for the caucasian, tend to be 100+, even some as high as 150ish. Part of this might be due to once remote tribes making rugs as a small part of their livelihood. Now, thanks to the afghan war, vast refugee camps have settled into basically professional rug manufacture, with better looms and far more practice. Unless you're a collector, why buy an indifferently made older rug when you can get a finely woven new rug with similar patterning (I'm aware that's going to sound like heresy here, but prices are based on supply and demand, and most demand is from people who just want something nice for their house). For that matter, are tribal rugs even tribal anymore? I wonder if in a lot of cases the rugs we're importing now are really from city workshops knitting tribal designs. Perhaps this is the real reason why modern "tribals" seem to be much better woven than those of yesteryear?


Higher knot count does not reflect a better weave. Many of these rugs being made today, unless under quality control of a contracted weaver, are highly commercialized goods with low grade material input. There's no making generalizations with rugs.

psanchezp58 wrote:


4. Machine-made rugs probably have little impact on the new rug market - those who are comfortable paying $2500-$4000 for a rug won't care that there's a cheaper, albeit less desirable (in my opinion), alternative out there. Those buying used rugs, however, likely are more motivated by price. To them, a machine-made rug is an alternative worth considering. And thus, the rise of machine made rug, some of which are very nice these days, has put much more downward pressure on used than new.


Interesting, but I don't know that to be the case. I also don't know too many people to search for used carpets particularly. It's not uncommon for used rugs to also be more expensive than new rugs in showrooms.

Machine made rugs make people feel comfortable. They're easy to 'shop around' for and are available at a low price. It happens all the time that someone interested in hand knotted goes for machine made. And for reasons one wouldn't expect - like when looking for runners. Handtufted carpets have taken the market away from oriental rugs. In many cases around the price point of some machine mades, but people are attracted to the hand made part. Used rugs on the ebay level of mashad, ardekan - prices are low due to wear and other factors, not because they're depreciated by machine made.
bukhara Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, November 9, 2009 5:27:33 AM(UTC)
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psanchezp58 wrote:



Every rug person I talk to says that money spent on rugs is money well spent, as the prices always go up. But do they?




Yes and no. It depends largely on the type and the condition of
the rug. It is simply a matter of common sense.

Antique rugs are more likely to increase in value than any other type.
Rarity and increased scarcity account for this, just as certain paintings
by certain artists are very valuable. Since good old type rugs cannot be
produced overnight and since the supply is well nigh exhausted, it
stands to reason that choice antique rugs will continue to mount
in value.

The public has been told by many unscrupulous dealers that the rugs
they buy will increase in value every year. This does not hold in 95%
of all Oriental rugs sold today. The notion that the value mounts gained
widespread credence because so many people who bought rugs thirty years
ago without knowing what they were getting find their rugs worth several times what they paid for them.
A 200$ rug bought thirty years ago is often worth one 800$ .

But because a rug is antique it is not necessarily valuable. If an
antique is worn out or the pile worn down to the warp it has practically
no value unless it is a very rare rug suitable for a hanging or as an
exceedingly rare type for a hobbyist or a museum.

An excellent brand new rug in natural colors whose colors are a little
sharp should be worth somewhat more with its colors mellowed by
use. The element of rarity not being present the increase cannot be
tremendous.

But in the case of rugs that are chemically washed, which comprise
95% of rugs sold today, it is ridiculous to
thint that they will increase in value or even hold their own. Every
such rug as a matter of common sense will be worth less each succeeding
year. A rug equally good will be produced the next year and after it
is treated it will be silkier and more alluring to those who wish the
silky sheen because the sheen will have dulled somewhat on the
used silky rug.

psanchezp58 Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, November 9, 2009 5:48:11 AM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
Welcome to the forum psanchezp


Hi, it is good to have found you. Seems like many experts here that I hope to learn from.

RugPro wrote:


Rugs that to the novice eye may seem equal, but to a trained eye are vastly different. It's easy for a buyer to relate to KPSI, that's something that's quantifiable - so when two rugs of similar kpsi, or the colors are the same, or the design almost identical.... None of it matters - it's the details that matter. This takes seeing thousands of rugs and years of experience. Take a pak Caucasian from one of these ebay sellers, and compare it side by side to a rug from an importer with contracted weavers. You will easily see the difference.



Enlighten me, please. What am I looking for that would highlight the difference between the two?

RugPro wrote:


Higher knot count does not reflect a better weave. Many of these rugs being made today, unless under quality control of a contracted weaver, are highly commercialized goods with low grade material input. There's no making generalizations with rugs.



I do not dispute this, but how does your amateur buyer who might purchase one rug a decade tell the difference? Knots are easy to count, but beyond this?

RugPro wrote:


Interesting, but I don't know that to be the case. I also don't know too many people to search for used carpets particularly. It's not uncommon for used rugs to also be more expensive than new rugs in showrooms.



Yes, but I'm not talking about investment-grade rugs, rather "common-grade" rugs. And I'm sure you are right, no one sets out to buy used, but I suspect many, once they see they can't afford new, look to the other alternatives. And two alternatives are cheaper used rugs or machine-made. This is what I have been wrestling with myself. For me there's also the option of repairing a couple old, beat-up rugs, which I might end up doing just because I like the looks of them and can't find anything else I like quite as much, but I have no illusion that they're actually worth what they will cost to fix.
psanchezp58 Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, November 9, 2009 5:54:43 AM(UTC)
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bukhara wrote:


An excellent brand new rug in natural colors whose colors are a little
sharp should be worth somewhat more with its colors mellowed by
use. The element of rarity not being present the increase cannot be
tremendous.



Are there particular designs/manufactures/origins that should tend to do better than others?

bukhara wrote:


But in the case of rugs that are chemically washed, which comprise
95% of rugs sold today, it is ridiculous to
thint that they will increase in value or even hold their own.


How does one know if a rug has been chemically washed? It can't be as simple as looking for sharp vs muted colors, I don't think, as the more muted colors might just be due to how the wool was dyed?
RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, November 9, 2009 2:30:23 PM(UTC)
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psanchezp58 wrote:


Enlighten me, please. What am I looking for that would highlight the difference between the two?




uneven weaves - oblique, discontinuous, varying knot count, etc.
does the rug lay flat, if does lay flat: did it have to be blocked and glued?
what is the quality of wool?
is the pile cut even?
is it perfectly square, is one side or end wider than the other?
is the design well centered?
are corners reconciled?
were details spared in the minor borders?
yarn ply equal?
good tone on tone?
good overall balance and market appeal? ugly colors used as outlines?
if it's been tea washed, is it even?
clear change of dye lots partway through the rug?

inconsistencies in rugs with exception to abrash are not well accepted by consumers today in new rugs. Importers reject them, often never making it to western market, ready for tourist burns at local bazaars or ebay sellers to purchase by the hundreds.

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