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rugs found in india
svseller Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:53:19 AM(UTC)
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we are currently in india and found some nice rugs. Would like to know what kind they are, and what a good value for them would be. They are all 6x9 pure silk (Or so they claim!), made in Kasmir
svseller attached the following image(s):
6_by_9_light_k.jpg
6_by_9_trees_c.jpg
6_by_9_burgundy_k.jpg
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:56:43 AM(UTC)
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Indeed some beautiful oriental rugs! I hope you are enjoying your time in India.

You've taken some great photographs, but we'd have to have more information on the rugs, or images that are closer up before giving a value. As of right now with little info on KPSI, fibers, foundation material, etc, it's too tough to say. Try doing a burn test if possible to check if it's real silk, but if you're thinking of purchasing a carpet, be sure you can trust the seller... if there's no trust, there's no product. They should also be more than happy to do a burn test for you if it is real silk...

As for what the rugs are: I would guess probably all are Kashmir silk carpets made in India, but could even be imported from China - we'd have to see close up photographs of the reverse side of the carpet to tell the difference. Oddly enough, if you are purchasing overseas, some imported carpets are just as 'exotic' to them as to us. Meaning, just because you're in Turkey for example, doesn't mean you go to the bazaar and only see Turkish rugs. They may also have imported items there too....

The first one is often refered to as a panel design carpet. You can see some of the panels incorporate a tree of life design, and a cypress tree which represent life, prosperity and health. Some people sometimes call these a four season rug, as they show the changes of seasons. Many qum rugs from Iran have this similar design. Also notable is that each panel could be its own carpet, and each panel also has its own "mihrab"

The second and third ones I cant really say a name of because as with many of these Indian rugs they're very ecclectic in the designs interpreted. They're both kinda mixes between tabriz, with the red one having more kashan elements and the goldish one having more isphahan elements.

As of now, any one of these rugs could be in a very wide price range. The other thing to consider is while these are all very pretty rugs, the colors of the first one for example are not typical to those which would normally suit our market here in the States. This is always something to consider other than the actual physical characteristics of a rug.

Tell us a little more about the rugs if you can, and we'll try to help out to the best of our ability.

svseller Offline
#3 Posted : Saturday, March 29, 2008 6:26:00 PM(UTC)
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the first one they said was 400kpsi. The second and third they said were 300kpsi (different seller). I believe the foundation material is cotton. What questions should I ask about the fibers if I go back?

The first one they quoted a "list" price of $10k! The second and third they quoted a list price of $4k. I have tried to find some similar ones on Ebay, the closest I've found is silk rugs here: http://www.1800getarug.com/, they seem to go for around $1,600, but the designs are not as intricate. Both "seem" like legitimate companies, and claim they have been in business for a long time.

Getting out without buying was hard! They are like car salesmen, they just won't let you leave without naming your price. Trusting is very hard without someone local, but I'm wondering where and if we could find similar rugs in the US.

Thanks for the quick reply!
cloudband Offline
#4 Posted : Saturday, March 29, 2008 10:55:21 PM(UTC)
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get a rug is good. the only problem i have with them is the lack of information - they rarely state the country of origin, and be careful on descriptions of veggie dye. As per the value of some of these rugs..... It seems like they're asking pretty typical prices given kpsi and fiber content. You hit the nail on the head with saying the designs are not intricate for some of these lower priced rugs. You'll notice both less intricacy, and in many cases, a lack of flow of the design. Maybe a leaf here or there could have been expressed better in less knots or whatever or even curved smoother. This usually doesn't hit the value too significantly. These are all things people seem to pick up down the line, but you have picked up fairly quickly from what I read. Regarding quality, the rug appraisal too is fairly accurate for this type of rug.

Dealing with someone local really really helps. I have several names in SF, but don't like to pitch friends. I would absolutely challenge some of these sellers online about whether or not the items are in fact silk. Especially 1800 - I have seen them advertise veggie dye carpets when they're not, which could just be a mistake. If it is that important, I would ask them specifically to do a burn test for you, and make sure you're covered for to and fro return shipping if the item is not exactly as described. This is one of the most important aspects of purchasing online. Sellers can now get away with so many more stretches in description than ever before with the advent of the Internet. As a consumer, it is your right to have things honestly and accurately described to you - the seller knows its a pain in the but for the regular customer to ship a clumsy rug back to them.

I hope this all helps,

David
David Dilmaghani
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RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, March 30, 2008 7:22:19 AM(UTC)
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You have to keep in mind, many of these overseas rugs are still overseas because often they're unaccepted commissioned pieces. They were woven for importers, then never accepted because colors were not choice or qualities were inconsistent. I'm not entirely surprised you had a tough time getting out of there. You have to be ruthless when bargaining.

These Indian pieces are surprisingly diverse in quality I have a rug I'll take a photograph of at some point -the knot count was somewhere around 400, but what is unusual was the yarn ply. When first looking at the yarn, it looked like a two ply. When separating each ply, I realized each of the yarns were woven with a double ply strand.

I would say this 1800 is good, but make sure like cloudband says you're not getting a Chinese rug, I know they don't list country of origin.

There are a ton of these rugs out there - overseas and in the states. If you like this silk on silk kind of rugs, you could be in the price range for a real Iranian rug.... Silk Ghoums would be one possible choice.

Where is the rug going? How much were you thinking to invest?
svseller Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, March 30, 2008 7:29:36 AM(UTC)
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we were thinking of putting it in our living room or dining room. We want to spend between $2-4k, but don't know if that gets us silk or more wool rugs, we're still learning about prices (this trip has been a great way to make us learn!). I think there is room to negotiate, but 80% feels odd to try and negotiate that far down! We do really like the tree rug, and I've been spending quite a bit of time online and have not been able to find anything exactly like it.

Is there way I can tell if it's a one or two ply rug?

cloudband Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:06:22 AM(UTC)
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Indeed traveling abroad is an excellent exposure to the rug scene

6x9 is a great size for living room. dining room, I'm not sure what your layout is, but a lot of people go for the 8x10 sometimes 9x12. The good thing here is that your budget will allow for some really nice quality pieces for all the previously mentioned sizes. The only suggestion I have would be a wool rug would serve better in a dining room. They're easier to wash (especially spot clean), maintain and generally speaking, have a longer durability than that of a silk piled carpet. silk rugs almost always will need professional attention for cleaning.

As for having a silk rug look with a wool carpet, there are some techniques professional rug washing plants use to soften the feel of the wool, as well as improving luster. You can pick out a really nice quality wool rug and have this wash applied which is often termed a "lemon wash" or "luster wash" which usually goes for $6 a square foot... Although, it is best to find a rug which already has undergone this treatment rather than selecting then washing. Some rugs with over dyed areas may prove to have slight color run after this process is completed. Sometimes too harsh of a treatment can yield more shedding, although this is an extreme case.

You can find some really great deals online, but I've also seen very high mark ups on certain sites. Negotiating is such a tricky thing. On one hand, you don't want to lose the possibility of ownership. You want the rug, but at the best possible price... On the other hand, should you wish to have a long standing relationship with your corner rug store, you don't want to seem like too much of a nickle and dimer. This is when you have to assess the time, place, and objective. There are places where negotiating hard are appropriate. As I'm sure you already know from your travel abroad, rug sellers can lock onto a customers reaction to a rug very easily. If you are in the position to buy a rug at a location where negotiating is appropriate, don't reveal your true sentiments on any rug, and don't let the seller know you're intention of walking out with a rug. we wrote an article on bargaining not too long ago. One of my favorite write ups is Emmettt Eiland on using the "last day approach."

To count yarn ply, you have to take a careful eye to the reverse side of a carpet. Take a good look at any one individual knot, and you should have a fairly good idea of what the yarn ply is. Here's a post we did on yarn ply. One of the more important things to remember about this is some colors may have a different ply than others, so you want to look at several different colored knots to really assess the overall yarn ply. In theory, a carpet with more yarn ply will have greater durability, although this is not always the case, and shouldn't necessarily be the end all be all determinants when choosing a rug, nor should knot count or color count... There are many techniques which can be implemented to increase durability of the fiber, such as a hard twist wool. The tighter yarn is spun, the more resilient it will tend to be for a longer period of time.

Overall, when looking for an oriental rug, you have some really good potential with your budget, and should be able to find a really nice quality piece. One good tip is to compare both the front and reverse sides of the rug. What you're looking for is even weaving technique, and little loss of clarity of the design from front to back. Carpets which are sheered too little will have a somewhat muddled design. Rugs sheered too thin will show a grainy appearance to the design, almost pixilating it somewhat. Colors should be just as brilliant on the front as on the back, with little loss of detail. There are also instances where rugs are woven unevenly. Post production, a corrective measure for some of these uneven rugs is to block and starch them. On the reverse side of a starched rug, you will feel a slightly dry and somewhat translucent white substance which feels stiff to the hand. You may also see pin-hole marks and areas which appear to have been stretched. These aren't necessarily bad rugs, but washing in the future could yield a rug which is less than perfect when you go to pick it up, as the rug may form back to its original uneven state.

As for the tree design rug, you may want to do a search for "garden design" rugs. The only problem is that google images seem to provide too wide a search result, and often rugs are incorrectly labeled. You're probably best off finding a site that has a good reputation, and just sorting through their images, as I'm sure you've done already. The tree rug is a very nice looking piece, the design appears to have been very good execution and flow of lines. These rugs have become increasingly popular, especially due to the high level of intricacy needed to really make the rug harmonious.

The good thing is it sounds like you know when you like something. I would shop around and see as many rugs as possible at as many places as possible. See, touch, feel and get an idea for what's out there. Part of the pride of rug ownership is knowing you've looked at thousands of rugs, and you've got one of your top choices under your feet.

Do you have an interior designer? You might consider another route which some rug sellers have taken. I know of one gentleman here in NY who has extensive experience and recently left the showroom selling behind. He currently and deals with customers one on one basis to find the perfect rug with through greater access to inventory as he uses his network of importers.

David Dilmaghani
Oriental Rugs
info(at)rugrag.com

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RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:27:21 AM(UTC)
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here's the 400 kpsi rug with 4 ply silk. It's really tough to see unless pulling a knot or seeing it in person, but if you look in the absolute bottom left of the photograph, and trace right to the first white knot, you'll see what appears to be 3 ply, but the 4th is tucked behind. If you look more carefully, you'll see other areas which look like 5 ply, but it's really all threads wrapped around eachother and starting the twist once again. Pretty intense. A great quality rug, on cotton foundation - but it's small maybe 4x6. you rarely see rugs this quality.
RugPro attached the following image(s):
AT21-0105KnotCount.jpg
FORUM.jpg
cloudband Offline
#9 Posted : Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:44:48 AM(UTC)
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haha great advertisement rugpro
David Dilmaghani
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svseller Offline
#10 Posted : Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:16:47 PM(UTC)
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Thanks to both of you for the fast replies, this is very helpful as we go on a crash course of learning and trying not to get screwed by the aggressive salespeople. My wife wants to buy something as a souvenir, so we may go back, we just need to figure out what to offer.

We don't have an interior designer, we've always just got things we liked ourselves. It feels like there is a lot to learn about rugs before you can understand if you are getting a good deal!

Do both of you sell rugs as well? Does Rugrag.com sell rugs? It's hard to figure out

This site is incredibly useful, thanks for putting it together!
cloudband Offline
#11 Posted : Sunday, March 30, 2008 2:35:21 PM(UTC)
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You're very welcome, and thank you for the kind words and your interest!

It is a tough market to understand, and it's easy to get misled nevermind the charismatic persuasion of some sellers. Rugrag helps provide transparency on an independent level. I know I've seen a lot of sellers misrepresenting items online, and hope to bring clarity to these ongoing issues by helping here on the forum.

The editors of the site don't currently sell items online, but are thinking about the possibility as Internet consumers become more educated in the product and are willing to spend more online. There has also been talk of partnering with some stores that already have online presence that provide honest information and solid value.

As for me, I have a lot of experience with carpets, and have done a couple of the write ups on the site. I have a small collection which I've picked up pieces here and there. Some in travels, some online, and many passed down.


Do you and your wife get to travel overseas often?
David Dilmaghani
Oriental Rugs
info(at)rugrag.com

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svseller Offline
#12 Posted : Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:18:21 PM(UTC)
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we try to get overseas 1x/yr. My wife's aunt has spent considerable time in India, so we are visiting her there and touring the country for 2 weeks

as new customers, we would love to shop online once we learn what we like (assuming that is cheaper than local stores), and we'd like to find a low pressure way to buy, and a way to know what a reasonable value is.
cloudband Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, March 31, 2008 7:55:31 AM(UTC)
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Certainly feel free to bring any item under consideration to us. The more photographs the better, we'd be more than happy to help. I also know some of the other members are very familiar with the online scene so I'm sure if they see anything similar to the tree rug you posted, they'll do a follow up.
David Dilmaghani
Oriental Rugs
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RugPro Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, March 31, 2008 8:40:28 AM(UTC)
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Fortunate to be able to travel!

I work at an oriental rug store in NY for import and sales, I used to travel not so much anymore. We're not all pushy, but have seen how some sellers are really snoopy. I too can help on questions.

SV you sell motorcycle?
svseller Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, March 31, 2008 11:38:49 AM(UTC)
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thanks, I will be posting many more questions I am sure!

I don't sell motorcycles, I sell software for a living
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