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Just bought this silk rug, please help and comment
btuma6 Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, March 7, 2009 6:57:15 AM(UTC)
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Ijust bought this 3X5 ebay "prayer" rug for $400" buy it now". That seems a strange way to sell a rug by an experienced ebayer if it is a priceless as he claimed. The secondary claim was that it was a qum. I would guess more a Turkish rug.

The rug this is an attachment is a true qum 1950's with from what I was told the distinctive blue and salmon colors The whole rug is covered with fine detail. It's a 2X3 for $1,900 mostly due to it's "one of a kind" older colors.

The pictures of prayer rug are subpar to the floral qum, but I tried to compare the two to see if there were any common colors etc. There is a significant amount of open space on the prayer rug.

Any comments on origin etc of the ebay rug? I like the knot count. The seller is a 100% rated power seller with a 7 day return policy

58btuma
btuma6 attached the following image(s):
Qum silk4.jpg
prayer silk.jpg
silkq2.jpg
silk4.jpg
silk5.jpg
silk7.jpg
silkq3.jpg
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, March 7, 2009 8:50:43 AM(UTC)
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I think it would be fair to rule out China, but a lot of other elements keep the door open to other attribution. Turkish is a very good possibility. I'd have to see closer pics of the selvages and kilim on the end tho.
btuma6 Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:13:26 AM(UTC)
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Say, I recieved the above rug, and took it to a local appiaser. Of course he had a hugh advantage and could see the salvage and feel the rug.
Turns out it is a pure silk Tabriz estimated to be from the '60s.. If you could have seen the salvage, it was added which I was told is another mark of a silk Tabriz. Rather than working wiht the warf (if I have that term right) they hand sew a binding around the salvage.

It is very beautiful. For a 60s rug, it has no marks, fringe is perfect etc so it must of always been hung. Is it a collectors piece. Probably not for the very serious collector. The knotting isn't perfect, and it does have the added salvage. Am I glad I got it. I'm very happy to have it.
btuma6 Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 5:22:05 PM(UTC)
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Say I now have the pictures needed, and I 'm still not sure what it is. I seem to get conflicting reports when I took it in to get it cleaned. As mentioned one "expert" said it was tabrz with cut sides. Another wasn't sure if it was Iranian due to colors, and no one seems to be certain. I'm told as soon as you make rule about IDing you find a rug that breaks that rule The person who said it was tabriz said it was 40-50 years old. The seller said the person he bought it from said it was 10 years old.

Any other help would be apprieciated. It has 700kpsi from my count with the first pictures and my manual count. So where ever it came from would have to have some fine craftmen.

Thanks,
File Attachment(s):
tabsilkbackfold.jpg (1,576kb) downloaded 10 time(s).
RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 6:46:25 PM(UTC)
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well, the knot density is very high.

I would agree that Tabriz area may be possible candidate after seeing the ends, close up of the back.

Maybe it shows different in person, but going by the color match of selvage (red along the pile, and green along the kilim) I would venture to guess the edges are actually original. However, there is something unusual about them: They're very "rounded". That's to say, if you made a cross section, they appear as though it would be close to a circle. Tabriz rugs would have a flatter finish - probably modeled over 2 warp cords rather than what appears....

However, while everything about the design says: Tabriz Column design.... color is very unusual for Tabriz. Weave is tight, but there is packing every several rows toward the edge with some inconsistencies. Going by quality, selvages (rounded), colors, design, and packing technique (see spaced wefting and knots), my most educated guess at this time would be Indian. And a pretty convincing one at that.

This is a perfect example of a rug that I would want to see in person. I would be interested to see what someone else may say or if you are in contact with the gentleman who saw it in person what their take on the above may be,


btuma6 Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:27:08 PM(UTC)
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RugPro, there hasn't been a consistent statement by any of the three who saw it. I think this is true as you commented there is conflicting signs. The who said Tabriz didn't said it with the most conviction. His comment came from the columns etc. He was the one who said the rug stopped at the edges and then the "rounded" added. However, the next person stated that wasn't try wrote on the wash order "tabriz" but one of his guesses was Indian. The third person was a store owner who was mad that I hadn't bought a rug from him and simply commented "I can't tell you one way or another, but I certainly won't make a claim it was persian. The seller, who bought it with many different items from a dealer, said the dealer stated it was a qum. That seemed the most unlikely.

That's why I asked again.
RugPro Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:40:39 PM(UTC)
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I would not entertain the idea of Qum. Iran is not ruled out, design is 90% tabriz. As for origin, personally I'm leaning 45% toward India, 30% to Iran, and the rest to anywhere else. You purchased for 400, no?

btuma6 Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:11:06 PM(UTC)
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yes, $400 and I was told that orgin wouldn't really change the worth.
Nathan K. Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:28:24 AM(UTC)
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It's beautiful, Btuma6! You did well, regardless of where it's from.
I'm leaning towards 60's Tabriz, but silks can throw me. This may seem strange but how soft is the silk? Super soft, with almost no resistance to your hand as you move it up/down? Somewhat soft in one direction, kind of stiff in the other? Indo silks are soft like butter, Persians are more firm. (I know, I'm crazy...)
If you could, a nice corner detail shot from the backside, in high res. I'll ask Barry O'Connell to zip over and chime in with his 2 cents...

NK
btuma6 Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:01:46 AM(UTC)
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Much appreciated Nathan. The silk is definately course with a resistance going up or down. Part of my problems is I recently bought a couple of nce silk rugs that I have put on the site. I then got stung and paid too much when I bought a nice nain rug that supposedly was silk but wasn't Therefore I trying to figure out just what I have.

Thanks again.
File Attachment(s):
tabsilkbackco8.jpg (1,562kb) downloaded 11 time(s).
tabsilkcorneruse8.jpg (1,562kb) downloaded 11 time(s).
btuma6 attached the following image(s):
tabsilkcorner8.jpg
Nathan K. Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:10:09 AM(UTC)
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It looks to be silk on a cotton foundation. See if you can tug a knot out or find a loose pile fiber from the backside. Burn it, and quickly smell the smoke. Smells like burning hair, it's silk. Smells like burning paper, it's cotton/rayon.
I'm fairly certain this rug is from Kashmir or it may even be Egyptian; the workmanship just isn't quite up to Persian standards. That said, it's still a sweet little prayer rug for the money...

NK
btuma6 Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:55:31 PM(UTC)
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It is definately silk on silk, that has been verified several times, and those that see it first say they are certain it is silk so they don't even need to test it, but then it is burned. The workmanship has been noted, but that leaves me with the question if Kashmir have that 700kpsi (if I count correctl)? The other item that got me thinking was your statement about feel. It is definately firm. I have a silk Sumac, albeit kilm, which is very buttery, and a turkish silk most likely hereke that is more like this rug. However the pile is not a deep.
However, it seems as if the scales tip more to the Kashmir with your and RugPro comments. and they are most appreciate. Probably also I'm just wishing it is tabriz just cause it sounds better.
RugPro Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:33:05 PM(UTC)
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The knot count wouldn't indicate area necessarily. I actually seen in person more extraordinarily high KPSI rugs from India than anywhere else: rugs over 1800 KPSI+. I know this is a horrible generalization, but the long fringe also points a little to India.

I do have one question which sounds crazy.... If you take the rug and put it on a large flat surface with height under it (such as a table), then slowly push the rug off the edge, approximately how many feet/inches does it take to have hanging off the table makes a right angle/perpendicular to the portion on the table? This is excluding the fringe and kilim

Same could be done with a four hands if the width is narrow. one person at one end to hold the rug flat, the other to maintain parallel to the floor but at different check points. With a thin silk rug like this, it should be a halfway decent indicator of structure.
RugPro attached the following image(s):
90degreeangle.jpg
btuma6 Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:24:50 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for letting me know about the count. The reason I asked the question is to say something about this rug, but to learn.

I couldn't see the illustration, so hopefully these pictures will give a clue to the test if I had done it correctly. The short story on why I'm asking so many questions is I'm try to determine if this is a special rug. Special not in the sense that it's worth +$2,000, but special in the sense of myself being able to look at it for the next 20 years and know that it's not just another commercially produced rug ( I realize that all these rugs are made for the Western market), but one that has unique quality. If it is a kashmir rug trying to copy a tabriz motif, that takes it back to just another rug trying to look special.

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks
btuma6 attached the following image(s):
tabsilktrip.jpg
tabsilkhand.jpg
tabsilktable.jpg
tabsilkhav.jpg
RugPro Offline
#15 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:48:46 PM(UTC)
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images are just right, thank you for adding the others they help too. very good and clear.

Brick wall id love to hear what others have to say.

The way the rug drapes and conforms to itself is different than late third quarter silk tabriz rugs I've seen. again, the majority would have a much more refined weaving and packing technique between the knot rows and other indicators point me away from Iran origin. From the photographs, i think this rug may have a stiffer handle which would have to do with the weaving structure including wefting.

after all is said and done, you have a rug which no matter what way you slice the pie has a cool design. technically I think when they have columns like this the subcategory may be a "column rug" or "meditation rug" with Tabriz design rather than a prayer rug. very unusual colors, and just a really charming piece.
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#16 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:02:28 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
images are just right, thank you for adding the others they help too. very good and clear.

Brick wall id love to hear what others have to say.

The way the rug drapes and conforms to itself is different than late third quarter silk tabriz rugs I've seen. again, the majority would have a much more refined weaving and packing technique between the knot rows and other indicators point me away from Iran origin. From the photographs, i think this rug may have a stiffer handle which would have to do with the weaving structure including wefting.

after all is said and done, you have a rug which no matter what way you slice the pie has a cool design. technically I think when they have columns like this the subcategory may be a "column rug" or "meditation rug" with Tabriz design rather than a prayer rug. very unusual colors, and just a really charming piece.



In this interesting thing....is floppier & more supple good? If so, would this also apply to rugs you walk on? Or is good versus less good not the issue???
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#17 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:59:59 PM(UTC)
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technically I think when they have columns like this the subcategory may be a "column rug" or "meditation rug" with Tabriz design rather than a prayer rug.>>>>

Is a "column rug" a real and specific category, or just what it's called because it has columns? I've never heard of a "meditation" rug in the Islamic world, or in Islam itself for that matter. The prayer rug is usually it, which is used for the five daily ritual prayers, salat. There is on the rug very clearly a "mihrab" which is the central arched point at the top which is used to focus ones eyes during prayer while standiong and place the forehead during prostration, and is pointed in the direction of Mecca. (see what you learn on this site!)
RugPro Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:02:40 PM(UTC)
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more supple does necessarily indicate a good/bad. I think with this rug it perhaps may be an indication of origin. Kashmir rugs are somewhat known to have a stiffer feel.

number 1 and 2 show stress points in the rug from reacting to manipulation. Rather than having a "rounded" corner, it has a little bit of a harder angle. This is not too common for Tabriz, more characteristic of Kashmir.

number 3 also shows more of how the rug has a bit of a stiffer construction: it's wavy, and may conform more to manipulation than gravity. I'm not saying the rug is inferior or stiff as a board, these are subtle characeristics and traits I'm comparing to many silk rugs I have seen.

number 4 is the biggest indicator to me. the selvages, which is discussed above, but also the packing technique. toward the edges, the wefting pops out every 2nd, 3rd, sometimes 4th row of knots. this has to do with the way they pack the knots: sometimes they skip, go back, correct, etc... but this is not so much a Tabriz weave going by this technique, again, something I've seen much more in 30 year old Kashmir rugs than tabriz in general.

just my two cents
RugPro attached the following image(s):
corner-silk1.jpg
corner-silk2.jpg
corner-silk-3.jpg
corner-silk-4.jpg
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#19 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:03:21 PM(UTC)
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Well....

1) the ins and out and minutae of hand knotted rugs are infinite if not completely exhausting.

2) I remembered an interested event: my mother had this long skinny patinated-gilded candlestick in the livingroom.....along with many other items. I never thought it was attractive in any way. After she left this mortal plain.....I was told it was a signed Tiffany piece, bronze.....she had several Tiffany pieces.. I was shown and saw the signature on the base. I was also told what it was worth. I then observed.... learning all this did not make it any more aesthetically appealing to me! I found that fascinating.

This compelling subject is also being raised in this thread. Believe it or not. Only here, re rugs.
Kazak Offline
#20 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:13:06 PM(UTC)
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My initial reaction was the colors appear Indian.
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#21 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:23:31 PM(UTC)
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Kazak wrote:
My initial reaction was the colors appear Indian.



Re the above post and, as it turns out, working back to Pro's first post, #2.....see this:

http://zbay.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=2581585

Large rug, more garden variety in the design details, but it's silk on sill has similar colors tho certainly not identical, I mean the turquoise esp. TURKEY. And note the price.
______________________________________
Edit: On the third hand:http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574716523&toolid=10001&campid=5336111917&customid=Forum&icep_item=260380784717&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg|

Is this not fabulous? PERSIA.

Methinks the colors may not be a reliable indicator of the country of origin.
_____________________________________
One more special one newly made:

http://cgi.ebay.com/PERS...&_trkparms=72%3A1205|
Nathan K. Offline
#22 Posted : Friday, March 27, 2009 5:10:44 AM(UTC)
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Well done, RugPro!
Colors are a subtle thing, Jilly; it takes awhile to get a feel for them (and I'm still learning). On my last trip to Turkey, we saw a distinct difference between western, central, and eastern Turkish rug colors, but it's hard to put into words. Definitely a shift from primary colors in the west (where there are more tourists), to more unusual (but still beautiful) color combinations in the east. To me, this is part of what intrigues me about rug ID - putting all these little clues together.
btuma6 Offline
#23 Posted : Friday, March 27, 2009 11:26:36 AM(UTC)
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Nathan K, I hope you don't mind me taping into your subject. Attached are some pictures I include merely for color. I won't take all the time for the back side (then my back attachment came up) There is no question it is a Turkish rug, but is it hereke or kayser.
RugPro thought this rug was a hereke, and of course he was handicapped by my bad pictures. Then I got some conflicting points since it's a little over 400 kpsi rather than 500+, and one person saw a leaf that was forest green. They concluded it had to be Kayser.
What do these colors tell you?
However, I go back to what Jilly said. If it is Hereke or Kayser doesn't change the appearance which I strongly enjoy. It's a rug I can just look at and appreciate. It would be nice if it is a hereke simply because I know the workmanship. A person told me a kayser was an orphan child which I didn't appreicate because that child is my baby. Sometimes I think it might nice not to know too much, but simply to enjoy. After saying that what do the colors tell you.
File Attachment(s):
herekesaphporton_edited-1.jpg (2,989kb) downloaded 5 time(s).
herekesaphpanel.jpg (1,795kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
herekesaphbot.jpg (2,643kb) downloaded 5 time(s).
btuma6 attached the following image(s):
herekeback.jpg
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#24 Posted : Friday, March 27, 2009 11:38:27 AM(UTC)
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Nathan K. wrote:
Well done, RugPro!
Colors are a subtle thing, Jilly; it takes awhile to get a feel for them (and I'm still learning). On my last trip to Turkey, we saw a distinct difference between western, central, and eastern Turkish rug colors, but it's hard to put into words. Definitely a shift from primary colors in the west (where there are more tourists), to more unusual (but still beautiful) color combinations in the east. To me, this is part of what intrigues me about rug ID - putting all these little clues together.



Fascinating post. And I agree and so did Einstein who said, between the academic/cognitive and intuitive/instinctual re intelligence, the latter are the higher. Perhaps unfathomable by conventional means but never inaccessible.

Also re colors....and boy, I envy yr travels far and wide to experience things fist hand....what marks all of life most is its dynamic,. evne the language is a living, metamorphosing entity, and I mean officially in each new edition of a given dictionary. Perhaps we ought distinguish between classic, tradition colors and their origins within a given country and what is giong on currently. Not only are neo persians...I have learned, of formidable quality....like my new rug, being made places distant from the originals, but cultures morph, are impacted by things geo political... and tastes change.

Apparently, there was a time when "American" painted Sarouks fell out of favor here and many were sent to Germany where the marketplace was growing. And then that began to change. Then, there was what contributed to the initial failure of the not painted imported Sarouks in the first place between the two great wars which led to their being painted. Same deal with who finds abrash attractive and who a blight.

And all of this is inexorably entwined with cultural precepts, how manufactured, versus how organically evolved... how much the victim of commerce a given demographic might be within the culture. It also involves the tenets or respective religions, symbolism......it is infinite.

I recall once writing here somewhere, that, during my rug Hunt....reading a gazillion posted feedbacks by people who had purchased often no money, no reserve rugs on ebay.....how many people were entirely thrilled by their purchases & waxed ecstatic in their feedbacks. Most, missing academic data. First, it boggled......then it began to nourish and delight me as I came to get the purity of their responses. I thought about all of it in my journey.

Yr initial comment re you would like to be able to savor the rug more by knowing it is special in academic ways drew me. given that is often the core issue in all of the above. Now, yr mention re the orphan.....and that it might be nicer not to know too much should it compromise the purity of yr respons--this was very good illustration--same deal. I think the goal is to gather the hard data but never let owning it hold us hostage ot preclude seeing and experiencing everything fuly and with original sensibility.

the best m3edical diagnosticians are not necessarily those who did best in medical school.....but rather those with the intact gift of differential seeing. I find htis is true in ALL ARENAS. also re definition of imagination: "the ability to see relationships between and among elements and phenomena not theretofore conventionally related."

Remember, one of the thing which marked Nazi Germany was everything BY THE BOOK AND BLIND LOYALTY & obedience to the then orthodoxy.

This would make amazing thesis, yes? No, a giant book!! I do, actually write about such things. Cause however unexpectedly, I see their presence very often.
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#25 Posted : Friday, March 27, 2009 11:43:07 AM(UTC)
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btuma6 wrote:
Nathan K, I hope you don't mind me taping into your subject. Attached are some pictures I include merely for color. I won't take all the time for the back side (then my back attachment came up) There is no question it is a Turkish rug, but is it hereke or kayser.
RugPro thought this rug was a hereke, and of course he was handicapped by my bad pictures. Then I got some conflicting points since it's a little over 400 kpsi rather than 500+, and one person saw a leaf that was forest green. They concluded it had to be Kayser.
What do these colors tell you?
However, I go back to what Jilly said. If it is Hereke or Kayser doesn't change the appearance which I strongly enjoy. It's a rug I can just look at and appreciate. It would be nice if it is a hereke simply because I know the workmanship. A person told me a kayser was an orphan child which I didn't appreicate because that child is my baby. Sometimes I think it might nice not to know too much, but simply to enjoy. After saying that what do the colors tell you.



Yep....another subtle but compelling topic: what are the components which hone our "eye" and responses to this and that? Clearly, you adore the rug. And it is a glorious rug apart from the elements determining its market value. Learning about the Tiffany stick caused me to respect the thing more in ways, mainly learning its value. But did I then find it beautiful? No. It was a little ephipany. Also extends into status items bearing logos......which creep me out.

Also reminds me of story I once read, a famous 5 star restaurant here in NYC....bearing great cache....their chef left and his replacement was Less Than. the actual quality of the food was compromised, but those held hostage by the imagery KEPT PATRONIZING THE PLACE. Interesting, yes?

Think about granite countertops. For years major cache. But ponder their inherent qualities in the UTILITARIAN application per se. In the classic to thine own self be true...evolving an actual self is the issue. As opposed, I mean, to being an unwitting lemming.

On the other hand, an educated eye comprises very subtle tenets involving experience, owning academic data, etc......goal is to not permit the latter to trump the pure response. It’s a fine line Sophistication, from the Greek works back to LOSS OF INNOCENCE. Innocence is not a bad thing and can mean not contaminated by arcane daa which CAN preclude experiencing things purely.


I think you are majorly bitten by the rug bug and are doing splendidly, including with this particular purchase!!!!
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