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carpet with bukhara design and ghiordes knots
androckaway Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, March 9, 2008 4:21:13 AM(UTC)
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I saw a carpet with a bukhara design (the seller said turkoman bokhara) with turkish knots.
Wool pile on wool foundation.

What kind of carpet is it?
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androckaway Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2008 1:18:23 AM(UTC)
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picture


RugPro Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2008 8:10:32 AM(UTC)
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Ok, I can't see the the image on my computer but this is a good question. Do you have a link?
androckaway Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2008 9:48:27 AM(UTC)
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this is the link for the image:
http://www.imagehosting....imensionadiPICT0313.JPG

this rug is similar to this one found over the web
www rug

so i guess it is an afghan bukhara (don't know if this name is properly said)

what about this kind of rug?

I found them very soft and sober
RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2008 10:07:49 AM(UTC)
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ok, the first link doesnt work but the second does

anyone please jump in if I make any incorrect evaluation here. While this carpet may have been produced in afghanistan, many carpets are made in india, and other with similar design nowadays. There were a lot of these also coming from pakistan as well.

The general design is accepted as a "turkman motif" This design is seen in chaudor, ersari, and yomud carpets. Typical keyword search would be tekke. The gul which some refer to as an elephant footprint is also found in traditional afghan rugs, however usually feature less overall colors and are usually fatter and rounder. In this case, it would be safe to say that either a "tauk noska gul" or maybe even a "temerchin gul" which often have alternating colored quadrants within a squashed octogon featuring reds and ivory. This bukhara type of genre, as many tribal rugs are among the more technically assessed carpets, down to the z and s spun wool, veggie dyes etc.

A really, Really good book for understanding these carpets comes from peter Stone called "Tribal and village rugs"
androckaway Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, March 10, 2008 8:27:42 PM(UTC)
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indian or pakistan carpet should have cotton foundation, or i am wrong?
RugPro Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:08:52 AM(UTC)
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for the most part, you will usually find india and pakistan with cotton foundation. You have to be careful with these rugs tho, some of them are really soft and sllers will try to pass them as silk rugs, but they really are chemically treated wool. also some can be of really poor quality wool, but Im sure you can identify this wel enough

The one you pointed out online was a really nice looking one, it actually looks to be wool on cotton. It has good details too.
androckaway Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:29:59 AM(UTC)
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yes, i saw also a (called) silk bukhara with an orange / pale red primary color...and also a wool bukhara with silk foundation...
very strange!
RugPro Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:36:56 AM(UTC)
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hmmm... I don't know, I'd be wary of that. although it could be silk, it's highly unsual, and it may even be faux silk made artificially. Weird. Every so often you see these unusual rugs pop up even going back a long time. For example the senneh design typically was created with wool pile and cotton foundation. however, they select few that were made with wool pile and a rainbow warp. this was and still is a rare variety, although I'm unfamiliar with this having been done for any bokhara/bukhara design recently or ever.
cloudband Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:11:22 PM(UTC)
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androckaway-

The photograph you posted Monday, March 10, 2008 11:18:23 AM looks to me like a Pakistani carpet with wool pile, cotton foundation. It also looks to be of a nicer quality than the majority of the stuff on the market. Seems to be in good condition. How much are they asking, KPSI, wear, etc...?

It could be wool foundation, but going by how I've seen cotton foundation appear when photographed, cotton is my hunch.

-Dave
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androckaway Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2008 9:27:36 PM(UTC)
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I burned a yarn of the fringe and it smelt like burned hair, so it's wool...

the picture is very ugly, the real color are brighter.

ghiordes knot about 4x6 in one sq cm, so 150 Kpsi

carpet is in new condition, pile is smooth and very soft.

about 2x1,3 meters for 180$ (already purchased...)


i also found this site http://orientalcarpets.com.au/afghan.htm with two rug similar to this one (see alti bolaq or turkmen).
RugPro Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 4:53:39 AM(UTC)
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How many rugs do you have?
cloudband Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 5:28:57 AM(UTC)
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An importer we know has excellent quality bokharas, probably the highest quality I've ever seen. I purchased a couple a little while ago before the prices went up - they sold them like hotcakes, but cant get the quality anymore. People don't realize how difficult it is to find finely woven, high quality Bokharas. There are so many of this design that mass producers have junked up the market with, and people think they've seen the same thing for less. Looks like you've got a good one, androckaway.

-Dave
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androckaway Offline
#14 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 7:24:45 AM(UTC)
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since i'm here in afghanistan, i kill my spare time learning something about hand knotted rugs.
and sometimes I buy some pieces i like.
honestly for me I purchased just the nain shisla.
this rug is a gift for my mother, the others for my mother-in-law and my girlfriend...
cloudband Offline
#15 Posted : Friday, March 21, 2008 11:28:28 AM(UTC)
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Lucky Family!!! Watch out for Tabriz and RugPro, next thing you know they'll be telling you they're your cousins..... LMAO

Are you expecting to hang any of these rugs?
David Dilmaghani
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androckaway Offline
#16 Posted : Friday, March 21, 2008 8:19:38 PM(UTC)
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:))))
oh, yes, I remember i have some relatives in the states...
maybe tabriz and rugpro are my cousins... gift for them too!!! :))))

actually all carpet on the floor...
Tabriz Offline
#17 Posted : Tuesday, April 8, 2008 10:51:51 AM(UTC)
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androckaway Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:05:32 AM(UTC)
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an afghan iranian rug... of course :)
it cames directly from afghanistan but it also has an iranian origin...
strange seller...
two years to make it is also too much....

btw nice carpet, some design reminds me my rug.
but too expensive....
RugPro Offline
#19 Posted : Friday, April 11, 2008 10:34:16 PM(UTC)
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True 2 years is way too much to state
androckaway Offline
#20 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 4:57:40 AM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
True 2 years is way too much to state

maybe it was made by a one arm blind weaver...
cloudband Offline
#21 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 8:16:21 AM(UTC)
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Funny. When you said this, I immediately remembered a rug I had seen on Ebay about a month ago. It was the most unbelievably distorted carpet I think I have ever seen. I spent about a half hour now looking for it with no avail. The design was okay in the field, but the left hand border was maybe some varying width of 8" to 24", while the right hand border was a consistent one foot. The whole rug had a trapezoidal shape. Unfortunately I was unable to find it again! But here's another rug I came across. Not nearly as distorted, but I guess it is what one would say "irregular."
cloudband attached the following image(s):
Irregularrug.jpg
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RugPro Offline
#22 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 8:27:21 AM(UTC)
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LOL, That one is pretty bad, but not as bad as I've seen.

What's interesting to me is some of the discussion over the "Ardebil Carpet" at the Victoria Albert Museum.

It has been suggested that this carpet has a somewhat larger design mapping on one side to better suit the final orientation of the rug. Apparently the carpet was ordered to have this larger/adjusted design to compensate for the seemingly diminishing size of design when viewed at eye level. You can see this by taking a look at the lanterns stemming from the main medallion, which are obviously larger. Also, if you look carefully, you can see the medallion is set slightly closer to one border than the other.
RugPro attached the following image(s):
ardebil%20carpet.jpg
KrowGyrl Offline
#23 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 9:28:31 AM(UTC)
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But here's another rug I came across. Not nearly as distorted, but I guess it is what one would say "irregular." >>>

I saw that too. But that is by no means as bad as I have seen on eBay. A few I have seen have such an extreme unevenness at the narrow end as to completely destroy any possible beauty, even organic, of the rug. But I have also noticed, those generally have a much lower shipping cost in hopes of unloading them. They have their use. Funky stores and commercial spaces, cafes and the like probably eat those things up.
cloudband Offline
#24 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 1:02:13 PM(UTC)
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Interesting point on the VA Tabriz, this would be a great post on the site if you have time

Krow - I don't disagree that an irregular rug is almost a lost cause - within today's standards. However, some of my most prized rugs have very odd designs which are not even to say the least. One antique silk Heriz a friend of mine owns is a full one foot wider on one side! It's a gorgeous rug overall, and the imperfect shape only adds to the uniqueness. Personally, to me every rug has its own element of beauty. I enjoy finding the faults within a woven rug, it's only in congruity with the essence of human nature to be imperfect: There is an element of a humble being in these rugs. I do agree that in terms of a rug being aesthetically pleasing to the majority of would be owners... these newer carpets have no real place in the current market.
David Dilmaghani
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RugPro Offline
#25 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 1:51:32 PM(UTC)
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haha Is the runner you posted yours cloudband? j/k :) I'll try to do a write up on the Ardebil rug sometime the next couple days, I may have time.
KrowGyrl Offline
#26 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 2:22:11 PM(UTC)
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Cloudband ... Yeah, I agree. I am very keenly tuned into the temperment and personality of the carpets with variations and personality. I recognize there are several different buying demographics. I have some rugged edges myself and I gravitate to the more geometric, rugged tribal carpets. I have been collecting a variety because not everyone has my tastes. But the ones I fall in love with are the non-floral types that to tell you the truth, would look better on a dirt floor than a marble one. Some of my own favorites are below. The photography in a couple of them clods them out a bit, but they are all sharp and crisp.

http://tinyurl.com/5z6jlr

http://tinyurl.com/4vvwxu

http://tinyurl.com/6mwvpc

http://tinyurl.com/4wg9ob

http://tinyurl.com/6nh9fq

By the way, how do you add photographs directly to the post?


RugPro Offline
#27 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 3:25:50 PM(UTC)
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Add photos by saving them to a folder somewhere on your computer. Post a message and then go back and click attach. Then click browse, find the folder you saved to, double click on the image you want to upload. Once you see it on the page, click "back" and make sure it attached. Sometimes the larger files just go up as file names that can be opened, other times the whole pic shows up
KrowGyrl Offline
#28 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 3:47:11 PM(UTC)
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Aha! Seems easy enough. Odd that you have to post and then go back. But thanks.
KrowGyrl attached the following image(s):
Rug-86.jpg
RugPro Offline
#29 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 4:42:42 PM(UTC)
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NICE JOB ON ATTACHING!

I LIKE THIS DESIGN! The irregularties as cloudband can add to the character. Is it ECG too? What's the deal on this rug?
KrowGyrl Offline
#30 Posted : Monday, April 14, 2008 5:03:16 PM(UTC)
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Yep, EGC. They're pretty easy to spot by the photos. I do need to change that out. This one really is a beuty in person, so to speak. 4'X9' "Touserkan" semi-antique but lists no age so that means nothing to me then. It has a bold and brisk appeal and does not have the "washed out" look that the picture does.
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