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Heriz Valuation Please
gerrha Offline
#1 Posted : Friday, February 27, 2009 3:21:50 AM(UTC)
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Hi,

Ok, here is a Heriz rug that I purchased last year. I am hoping to discover if rug prices here in Saudi Arabia are higher than an equivalent rug would be in the USA - I am beginning to suspect that they are, so I am prepared to take a beating by the pros here.

Purchased in Al-Khobar, Saudi Arabia
Purchase price: $3800
Size: 207 cm x 285 cm
Age: Dealer says 50 years old
Condition: perfect, never been out of dealer's store, no stains, damage, or wear at all
Pile: Wool
Warp/weft: cotton
KPSI: vertical 8, horizontal 8 = 64 (my count)

Thanks for the look,
File Attachment(s):
CIMG7177.JPG (4,018kb) downloaded 32 time(s).
CIMG7178.JPG (4,026kb) downloaded 9 time(s).
80small.jpg (1,410kb) downloaded 9 time(s).
82small.jpg (1,540kb) downloaded 5 time(s).
gerrha attached the following image(s):
7600small.jpg
7601small.jpg
7603small.jpg
oldsmall.jpg
old1small.jpg
old2small.jpg
horizontalsmall.jpg
verticalsmall.jpg
7602small.jpg
79small.jpg
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KrowGyrl Offline
#2 Posted : Friday, February 27, 2009 3:29:31 AM(UTC)
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Location: Yonkers, NY
Age: Dealer says 50 years old
Condition: perfect, never been out of dealer's store, no stains, damage, or wear at all>>>>

So it's been sitting in his store for fifty years? Speak to the hand

Possible, certainly. But there are a lot of the same numbers being tossed around bu people evaluating rugs. And I know they will generalize and no one is gong to say a rug is 87 years, 5 months, 14 days and 32 hours old, unless he made it himself. As I mentioned on another thread, I'd find someone who can tell you what the haggling customs are in your city, what the general vast mark-up is for foreigners (I am assuming you are not a Saudi or you'd know) and then go from there. And maybe take a friend along who won't let you get sheared like the rug's wool. That can make all the difference in the world.
gerrha Offline
#3 Posted : Friday, February 27, 2009 4:04:39 AM(UTC)
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Yes, I wondered why he would have it for 50 years myself, but they always have good answers for that question -was in our Riyadh store, was on the wall at the owner's house, etc.

By the way, this request for Heriz valuation is just the beginning. We have bought 15 total rugs here in the last year or so (getting about ready to leave back to the good old USA). We have been here for 21 years now, so we pretty much know the foreigner mark up routine plus the haggling over prices. But all of that is why we are posting here, to see if "our" prices (after much haggling over price by the way) are just too inflated. I half-way trust the dealer in this case too, and I hope our trust is justified because we have bought quite a few from him, which we will be posting as I can

Thanks
netjim Offline
#4 Posted : Friday, February 27, 2009 5:36:02 AM(UTC)
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Just last week I sold (at retail) a 9' x 12' hand knotted, 12/12 for just a little less than $3000 and was pleased
with the margin. This was a new rug but I don't think that should make a difference. It was NZ Wool and
made in India so there are those that would price it lower than a comparable quality made in Iran. But higher
knot count and larger size.....
well, of course there are many other factors in play here.
KrowGyrl Offline
#5 Posted : Friday, February 27, 2009 8:21:16 AM(UTC)
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Say Gerrha, I know someone on another list I am on, not rug related, who is in Saudi Arabia and has been for a couple of decades and is moving back to the States soon. You wouldn't by any chance go by the name of "Ooti" anywhere else on the net would you?
RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, February 27, 2009 9:52:48 AM(UTC)
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gerrah... I think and type, so here are my thoughts. Some of what's mentioned may or may not affect value. I am going to show this to an associate to get an opinion.

I know age wasn't really the question but 50 years would place it at 1960. I mean, I know dealers who have 80 year old rugs unused in inventory passed down from ancestors/inherited, so I don't think it's out of the question

I would expect a 50 year old Heriz to have a few more colors and slightly more contrasting outlines. But characteristics like the thick corded fringe/warps do indicate the age could be very likely. It could be newer - like maybe 25 years old (going by the combination of colors, especially plum and field color), but I think the lighting may be misleading showing the colors to be a little more "warm" than they really are with a bit of a gold overcast: 7602small.jpg may be the more accurate colors as opposed to the "oldsmall.jpg". Maybe lemon washed for luster or was cleaned at one point or maybe walked on a lot with socks. pile fibers look very straight and polished.

For some reason I counted 6x7, which is a little coarser than most would attribute to a Heriz, but there are so many weaving villages in that area a lot of dealers call them Heriz anyway. I don't think this is Goravan or Mehriban, but could be something like these smaller villages that receive Heriz attribution.

The weaver used a few colors meant for design elements in the border, one area looked as though there was slight oxidation. Colors are very interesting, but there are some very slight inconsistencies which also in my mind make me think again it may have been washed.

Price with a rug like this would depend on when the seller purchased, so I am going to confer with an associate as to a current US retail on this. In the meantime if you may have comments on the above that's great Sick
gerrha Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, February 27, 2009 5:16:30 PM(UTC)
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Hi Krowgyrl,
No, that is not me, but there is a good sized group of us over here. I may know this person though if you can put a name to Ooti.
gerrha Offline
#8 Posted : Saturday, February 28, 2009 3:50:23 AM(UTC)
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Rugpro,
I can say for sure that the coloration of the rug is different now as it sits on the floor in our house than it was in the store. The oldsmall series photos were taken in the store with a combination of daylight through large windows and fluorescent lights. The 7600 series were taken in our house with the flash of the camera. I assume that all of these dyes are synthetic?

I am not sure if it helps in the identification, but the handle of this rug seems quite floppy to me (which disappoints me for some reason I cannot explain). We have another Heriz, which I will ask about next, and it is much stiffer than this rug, almost like our Bijar.
Kazak Offline
#9 Posted : Sunday, March 1, 2009 6:08:11 PM(UTC)
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1) The price seems high for smaller than 7x10.
2) This is not really a true Heriz in my book, but likely something from surrounding villages (Goravan, Mehrivan, or something in those areas.) as it has a less than characteristic Heriz look and colors, especially for something 50 years old. People like to call things Heriz because it's a good recognizable name and it adds value.

3) I not even sure about the age. It could be less than 50 years old, but very hard to tell.
KrowGyrl Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, March 2, 2009 2:40:00 AM(UTC)
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Hey Gerrha ..

The guy "Ooti" is just a guy on a posting list I am on. He's quite likely and very bright and is a good solid presence on that little community. But I don't know his real name. It would have just been a funny coincidence and such coincidences seem to happen, a lot, oddly. And I know there are a lot of "you" over there. I sort of have my fingers in a few types of pies that keep my eye on that part of the world. Pray
gerrha Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:39:36 AM(UTC)
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Ok, it seems there is a consensus that $3800 for this carpet is too much. What would you estimate is a fair value for the carpet? Also, are the dyes synthetic in the rug?
Thanks
RugPro Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:31:48 AM(UTC)
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Hi, depends on location, who's selling, when they purchased, etc. I don't like to place numbers on the board. Markets change, and there will be people down the road searching the forums. from what i see, I would imagine 2k +/- would be typical. Not having a rug in front of me is a big disadvantage Not to say some retailers would ask more or less and receive those amounts.
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