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ID help please - Silk, possibly Persian
mbmb1 Offline
#1 Posted : Friday, September 19, 2014 4:58:51 AM(UTC)
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Silk rug. Some wear or corrosion. Size about 4'x6'.
Please let me know any thoughts about origin, quality and/or market value.

Your time and attention is much appreciated! Thank you
mbmb1 attached the following image(s):
back - weave.jpg
qtr view.jpg
back - coin,  ruler.jpg
corner.jpg
corner - note abrash.jpg
corrosion or wear - only on flowers.jpg
full rug.jpg
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mbmb1 Offline
#2 Posted : Friday, September 19, 2014 5:09:24 AM(UTC)
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Quality of the photos - had to upload lower quality pics (1M) because page times out and I get an error when I try to upload high quality pics.
mbmb1 attached the following image(s):
CameraZOOM-20140919174455438.jpg
3m c.jpg
3m d.jpg
RugPro Offline
#3 Posted : Friday, September 19, 2014 5:22:30 PM(UTC)
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Kindly tell us a bit more information about what you do have on this rug - it's age, origins, how did you acquire?
mbmb1 Offline
#4 Posted : Friday, September 19, 2014 7:12:12 PM(UTC)
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Hi RugPro - I bought this rug 2 years ago. The dealer said it is a silk Heriz but I was not sure about that because he said this rug was the only one like this he had seen. His normal wares are low-medium quality wool (his market / shop is in Thailand - not a large population with interest in rugs, apparently due to climate, custom, cost, etc.). And I am not familiar with (possibly) Persian silk rugs (except Qom).
I bought it because I really like the colors. There are some condition issues - fringes worn off; some wear and what looks like corrosion to me (inside portions of some flowers but stops at flower outlines. - I have heard of some wool colors (black, brown?) corrosion due to corrosion of iron particles(?) in the dyes.
I believe it has significant age but I don't have enough knowledge to judge age or where woven.

Hope this helps and I will post another pic showing edge and (flower) corrosion.

Thanks for you thoughts/insights.
mbmb1 attached the following image(s):
3m - edge and corrosion.jpg
RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Friday, September 19, 2014 7:59:18 PM(UTC)
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Hmm, not silk Heriz, they tend to have a very unique character about them. But it could be Persian ca. 1940's/50's. Regardless of origin, I doubt the rug is much older than 30's, and say this based on several factors but mainly construction / colors/ appearance - although could be wrong. If I had to make an educated guess - perhaps Tabriz. The loss to silk can be from any number of things, although silk tends to become brittle when exposed to UV and other environmental factors. Although the durability is there, over many years the fold wear is not that of wool, and eventually will break/powder or deteriorate. This rug does not appear to have horrible deterioration, but as you note, it does show some use. Much more than this can be problematic as silk rugs are quite costly and difficult to restore, so you may be at a good point in time to bring it off the floor and display on the wall in an area of the home that does not receive a great amount of sunlight.
mbmb1 Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, September 19, 2014 8:38:21 PM(UTC)
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RugPro, thank you for your insights.

The rug is no longer walked on and I keep it out of direct sunlight.

I don't know the best way to hang rugs (sewing on Velcro, etc.) and don't know how to distribute the weight evenly to not risk damaging the rug.

I would like to gently clean it (damp cloth with water / white vinegar 50/50 mix?) but I am nervous to try that.

Not sure if I overpaid - 3k usd (he did not treat me as a typical tourist buyer, probably because I speak Thai (not fluently but we weren't discussing physics ;) ).

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

RugPro Offline
#7 Posted : Saturday, September 20, 2014 7:38:12 AM(UTC)
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Bringing the rug off the floor is a good idea. It sounds like you have done some investigating on how to clean silk rugs, however, I would 100% advise against cleaning yourself. There are too many problematic issues that may arise. Even with distilled water, some silks stiffen up like a board. The pile becomes severely matted then dry hard and extremely brittle/fragile. Bring it to a professional for sure. I am unsure on the origin of this rug, if I had to make an educated guess there was a variety of Bulgarian silk carpets made in the 1950's and 60's that had similar aesthetic and technical aspects to this carpet. I do not believe it to be Persian, especially by weave, knotting, color tones and overall look, although, I look forward to the insight of others on the forum.
mbmb1 Offline
#8 Posted : Saturday, September 20, 2014 7:50:39 AM(UTC)
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RugPro - thanks much for your time and the good info. And warning about home cleaning remedies.

Any thoughts on market value (Tabriz vs. Bulgarian?)

S&CO, KAD, others? Any opinion?

mbmb1 Offline
#9 Posted : Saturday, September 20, 2014 7:58:53 AM(UTC)
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Also, about finding a good professional rug cleaner, it has never happened to me and I am not sure how common it is but I have heard of special, high quality carpets being "lost" when someone returns to get their carpet. (They are then given an insignificant insurance pay off).

If true, cleaners reputation would also be important.
Sharafi & Co Offline
#10 Posted : Saturday, September 20, 2014 4:41:11 PM(UTC)
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When I first saw it I thought it was a Persian Tabriz but a bit odd. I think it has cotton wefts. What threw me was Rugpros observation that it might be Bulgarian. I have seen fine Bulgarians with very fine uniform weave and that is the old ones. But I have not seen any in silk. So If Rugpro has seen them then it is worth taking note.

If it is Tabriz, which I think it is then even in this condition you have bought it at a good price. It is difficult to tell the age of this rug from images but I think it is about 70 to 80 years old.
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mbmb1 Offline
#11 Posted : Saturday, September 20, 2014 7:49:41 PM(UTC)
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Sharafi and Co. - thank you for your input. I am learning, I had never heard of Bulgaria as a rug producer.

If I can determine cotton vs. silk weft: silk would "definitely" indicate Tabriz?

I need to overcast the ends to ensure no further weft loss - perhaps I can do a burn test on a small piece.

Thanks again for sharing your experience. Cheers
RugPro Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, September 23, 2014 7:56:47 PM(UTC)
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In the photo with the rug flipped back on itself - there appears to be some very light but large writing - is this legible if it is writing? Does the rug have any tags or anything stapled to the back or edges?
mbmb1 Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, September 23, 2014 10:04:37 PM(UTC)
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RugPro - yes, looks like faded black marker. Not legible to me, can not tell if it was numbers or letters.

No tag, etc. was stapled /attached to rug.

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