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Hereke - (20x20?) - thoughts on this rug (quality, design or fair price) ?
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mbmb1 Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 9:02:34 AM(UTC)
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Just discovered this site - what a great opportunity for amateurs like me to learn. Many sincere thanks to dealers and others for taking the time and energy to share their knowledge.

I have occasionally bought rugs for the past 25 years - mostly Persian and (recently) several Herekes. So I have a little knowledge (a dangerous thing).

Please give me your thoughts on (my most recent purchase) this small (.54 meter, 40"x24" incl. fringe) silk Hereke with typical Hereke signature. Also has weaver/company signature "Sirinoglu" woven in the rug. I would much appreciate any insights about: quality of this rug (sold to me as a 20x20 Hereke), "Sirinoglu" company, any comments about design/colors/weave/"rarity" and market (investment?) value.

Also, anyone (dealers) ever seen this exact rug (i.e. easy to find? do you think hundreds have been made commercially for tourists?).

I look forward to your insights and comments (I am here to learn, negative input will not hurt my feelings). I don't want to influence the discussion so I will post purchase price after assessment (I am sure I overpaid).
File Attachment(s):
front - bottom half of rug.jpg (2,128kb) downloaded 30 time(s).
front - all of ctr.jpg (2,196kb) downloaded 37 time(s).
full rug - front.jpg (2,049kb) downloaded 52 time(s).
back - Sirinoglu sig. and coin.jpg (1,684kb) downloaded 42 time(s).
detail of back - with coin.jpg (1,252kb) downloaded 27 time(s).
pic of back - full rug.jpg (2,392kb) downloaded 32 time(s).
mbmb1 attached the following image(s):
hereke signature and rug edges.jpg
back detail with ruler 3.jpg
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 4:36:54 PM(UTC)
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1 user thanked RugPro for this useful post.
mbmb1 on 9/15/2014(UTC)
mbmb1 Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 9:26:32 PM(UTC)
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RugPro - thank you for the input. If you don't mind, do you have any additional thoughts (since you are experienced and in the rug business) and if you have seen a lot of Herekes:
- does this one look genuine (not Chinese) and 20x20 quality?
- do you think it is a commercial grade/commonly seen? Any other thoughts?

Thank you!
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Sharafi & Co Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, September 16, 2014 7:04:28 AM(UTC)
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It is very good rug. Very difficult to find, especially now that I think they have stopped producing them and import Chinese copies and sell as real Hereke. But even 25 years ago 20/20 was not easy to find. The design is not rare although they are usually darker colours. I did a quick count with my aided eyes and I think it is at least 18/18 and most probably 20/20.

The only thing that baffled me were the two images from another rug that were attached.
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
www.sharafiandco.com
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mbmb1 Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, September 16, 2014 7:33:24 AM(UTC)
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Sharafi and Co. - thank you for your insights. Much appreciated.

Please note the signature "Sirinoglu" - have you heard of this weaver before? (Although the rug is about 5 years old (seller told me), I can't find an active website for this company).

Do you have any thought about current market price? (Most expensive I have ever bought, curious if I overpaid a little or a lot).

Can you tell me the name of the 2 images you are refering to? I was careful uploading but I can double check.

Thank you for your time and knowledge!
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RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, September 16, 2014 5:19:28 PM(UTC)
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Can you confirm the unit of measure as inches seen in photo
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mbmb1 Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, September 16, 2014 6:33:28 PM(UTC)
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RugPro - yes, inches
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RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:04:23 AM(UTC)
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This appears to have a weave pattern characteristic of Turkish rugs over Chinese copies. Also, the knotting is quite tight, perhaps in excess of 900 knots an inch?
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Sharafi & Co Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:07:09 AM(UTC)
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I am afraid I don't know the weaver. I would have thought the replacement value or insurance value of it will be about US$5000 a meter.

You have images attached that have to be clicked on to open. They are all of this rug. Then there are two images that show up when you click on your post. Those two images are not the same as the others.
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
www.sharafiandco.com
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mbmb1 Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:49:40 AM(UTC)
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Sharafi and Co. -
I posted 8 photos: 6 have links and only 2 are visible without links. I don't know why - my first post. All 8 are of this rug.

About value, I paid much more than 5,000/sq. meter but no regrets as I may never see another exactly like this one. (5 years ago I saw this exact design/size/quality (but without the signature (I compared to the old photos) and regretted not buying it. So I didn't want to pass when I saw this one (although I did negotiate as well as I could. (...a long story).
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Sharafi & Co Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:52:30 AM(UTC)
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At the end of the day it comes down to can you find another one like it. So I suppose to some extend the value becomes secondary, especially if you like it.
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
www.sharafiandco.com
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mbmb1 Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:59:37 AM(UTC)
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RugPro - I do believe it is a genuine Hereke (based on look, feel of the silk). But I have limited knowledge - a little above the typical tourist wandering through Istanbul looking for a Hereke. So, I can't comment on weaving characteristics.

In this case I feel I was lucky to find this particular rug (but it was an expensive kind of "luck").
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RugPro Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, September 17, 2014 3:10:03 PM(UTC)
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I know what Sharafi is saying, the rug does not look the same close up than it does of the full rug.

A rug persons eye goes to certain color markers and design motifs when evaluating a rug and similarity between photos/rugs.

Sharafi, this does appear to be the same rug to my eye, I think the macro photo quality must be quite good. The designs seem to align properly, if this is the same rug and measurements are correct, this would appear to be 1600 +/- knots per inch.

In truth, you never know what you will come across when hunting for a rug. More often than not, I think everyone here on the forum has seen a few more misrepresentations than good overseas buys, so it is important to proceed with caution. Yes, do purchase what you like, but know this is a very risky business, and if you did end up getting a good deal, you never really know what makes the deal so good - a fake, a desperate seller, a consigned piece a less than reputable dealer will switch tags on. Be careful out there!
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mbmb1 Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, September 17, 2014 6:39:42 PM(UTC)
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Sharafi and Co. , RugPro -
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

And thank you for pointing out the need for caution. I have made some expensive mistakes over past years. In this case, with only a few days in Istanbul, and more urge to buy that rug knowledge, I probably paid too much. But I feel lucky I didn't pay this much to find out it is a Chinese copy.

Again, thanks for taking the time to give me your insights.

Since we all like looking at rugs, I will post a couple more soon.
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Little-Persia Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, September 18, 2014 5:16:45 AM(UTC)
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I see what Sharifi is saying as well. The full rug pictures are much darker an the close ups visible on this page bright, the colours look completely different but when you look closely at the borders they are the same.

It's a strange one. By my count there are 45 knots across an inch - that's incredibly fine (could be 1500 to 2000 rugs per square inch). Although the design doesn't appear as fine from the front.
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mbmb1 Offline
#16 Posted : Thursday, September 18, 2014 7:24:26 AM(UTC)
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Maybe 1 more photo will clarify ...
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mbmb1 Offline
#17 Posted : Thursday, September 18, 2014 10:50:58 PM(UTC)
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Unable to post another picture ...tried repeatedly. "Loading" always times out. Maybe pic size is too big or I have already uploaded the maximum number.

Thank you for all the replies. I post a couple of more interesting rugs soon.
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mbmb1 Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, October 15, 2014 9:09:25 AM(UTC)
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if anyone (the pros or amateurs on the forum) has seen a hereke with this this exact design and colors please let me know. I would like to learn more about the weaver / company, or if design is commonly seen.

Many thanks in advance!
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RugPro Offline
#19 Posted : Wednesday, October 15, 2014 9:40:35 AM(UTC)
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fairly common design maybe try researching tree of life or tree of paradise.
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mbmb1 Offline
#20 Posted : Wednesday, October 15, 2014 8:13:09 PM(UTC)
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RugPro, thanks for the reply.


Actually, I am hoping to find out if anyone has a another of this EXACT rug. I would like to acquire another one.

Or, if someone has a rug in this exact design /colors (and possibly weaver) in a lesser quality (10x10, 12x12, etc) or a Chinese copy.

If anyone has or is aware of one, please let me know. Much appreciated!
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RugPro Offline
#21 Posted : Thursday, October 16, 2014 9:38:58 AM(UTC)
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Are you offering a finders fee / commission? What is your budget? You may consider posting in the Rugs Wanted section with details on your location, size you're looking for, price range, and terms
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mbmb1 Offline
#22 Posted : Thursday, October 16, 2014 7:51:18 PM(UTC)
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RugPro, yes I should have posted to "rugs wanted".

I had hoped someone has one in stock, or private owner has one. Exact design /colors - then would PM me for price, finders fee, etc.(vs public discussion).

Thanks for your insights. Cheers
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