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sarouk?
mosaic08 Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 10:14:25 AM(UTC)
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here's another one...antique shop in virginia that'd ship. what would WE pay for this?
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 10:30:16 AM(UTC)
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american sarouk circa 1930. appears painted recently and probably back then too. I posted a response in the middle of your adding images! sorry.

condition looks fair, does appear to have low area and newer coloration (possibly) for painting. Tough call on value, I would say $12-15 per square foot private party is fair all else equal in terms of no dry rot, patches, damage. the lighter spots of the rug indicate low pile which is not great.

what is this person asking and what is the size

krow, what do you think
mosaic08 Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 10:35:54 AM(UTC)
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9x12, $1,000 including shipping...MAN YOU GUYS ARE FAST! ...as you might be able to tell by my post, i'm really looking to get a Sarouk on the cheap... any leads would help!!! and thanks, as always, for your posts...
mosaic08 Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 10:37:22 AM(UTC)
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...ahh, and i think i see why you know it's painted, however how do you know it's recently been painted... thanks again.
RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 10:43:31 AM(UTC)
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every white speck seen is probably part of the foundation showing through. I can also see it appears as though this rug is a painted sarouk, however may be a re-painted sarouk because often when these rugs were worn down, you would see a lot of halo around the floral arrangements. This rug looks worn without the large halo.

The painters would stay away from delicate floral patterns when applying heavy dye. they would stay in larger open areas in the field where the dyes would get saturated more thoroughly.
as the rug is progressively worn, areas with less dye would be exposed. this rug has the painting, but does not have the halo that much.

you have to be very, very careful with rugs which have been recently painted, because the dyes could be covering up exposed foundation making them appear to be the same color as surrounding area. ask the seller if foundation is showing, ask them if it was recently re-painted. make sure there's a good return policy, and shipping is reasonable. no more than $100 to ship this rug anywhere in the country via UPS, possibly as low as $60 or less depending on where you are. ask them to send specific photographs of heavily worn areas, ask if the rug has odor, moth damage dry areas or major repairs/patching. Otherwise I would say this could be a go if all else checks through.


keep in mind, every rug person would be willing to pay a different amount for this piece. I can honestly tell you I have seen rugs in very rough shape where the seller is asking 3k. Personally I think it's outlandish, but they do this for "marketing strategy" and sales "discount" opportunities down the road, or to reinforce their "shocking history of the rug".
what is this person asking of $1000 is not horrible. I've seen rugs in worse condition on ebay for $2000 9x12
RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 10:45:29 AM(UTC)
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the rug also could be a little newer than 1930, but I think it's safe to say this is a semi -antique by at least 10 years. in the meantime, this post shows some good explanation of painted sarouks

http://www.rugrag.com/po...-andor-Chalked-Rugs.aspx
mosaic08 Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 10:50:28 AM(UTC)
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...ahh, i'll have to think about this one... i was hoping it was better than you were saying... um, where could i find a nice blue one, like this that is 8x10 w/ less damage for about $800 (yea, i'd spend that much)?
RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 11:04:56 AM(UTC)
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8x10s are a very difficult size to find. I think there never were too many of them to begin with, and the ones which were used would often end up getting used to the end of their threads. blue american sarouks are very tough to come by, but not nearly as difficult as white ones.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this rug, but what I am saying is to be careful. Especially if it's priced low. It could mean one of two things, either the seller got it cheap and is willing to sell it cheap, or the rug has some problems. if you talk to the seller, you should get a better idea of where this rug is at, especially if you ask for detailed pictures of this rug.

your best option is seeing the rug in person if condition is important. if you have 800 to spend, that's good, especially if it's cash because it gives leverage. I have to say, there are some really good deals out there if youre in the right place at the right time. the best success stories I've heard of with rugs are people who have bought them at estate sales not even knowing rugs were going to be sold.

do you REALLY want an old rug? or would you be okay with a newer indian rug with a sarouk design?
mosaic08 Offline
#9 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 12:10:08 PM(UTC)
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yea, i totally here ya... i think i'll just stumble across it one day when i'm not looking. as for origin/age, since i'm a purist, i think it'd like the real thing, which will make it well out of my price range for the quality... usually when i search, i don't look for the adds that they it's a sarouk, because then the gig is up... i look for the ones who might not know what they have but just want to get rid of it... i heard a classic story of someone who scored an original barcelona set of chairs that were still in packaging in someones basement which was a wedding present and they absolutely hated them and couldn't wait to get rid of them....that's what i'm looking for...the needle in the hay stack. i was super close to getting an original jens risom sofa, which my friend was absolutely convinced it was a prototype...it was my old landlords mothers and was sitting in the basement of the flat...he said he couldn't let it go for sentimental value...
KrowGyrl Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 1:32:14 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, that rug has a lot of problems. To my eye it looks dry too. $1,000 for that as a 9/12? No way.
KrowGyrl Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 1:39:37 PM(UTC)
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I just looked. eBay has 74 sarouk rugs on auction now. Perhaps there is something there for you at a much better price, and a better looking rug as well. When scoping out sellers, read the adds closely, and go for the regular rug sellers, and the ones that have the highest feedback ratings. I find that the regular dealers on ebay are pretty up front about what they are offering. If it's Indian or Paki copies, they say so. I usually stay away from the little guy or the private seller who thinks he's got some priceless heirloom.Whistle
RugPro Offline
#12 Posted : Monday, August 18, 2008 6:22:33 PM(UTC)
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the only thing is sometimes the rugs on ebay that are called sarouks are not actually sarouks. this does happen prettty often. they cloud up the search terms which makes it tough to actually find specific rugs. don't get let down by what we say here about the condition. It's good to be a purist, but the thing is it really is tough to find these rugs in excellent condition, so the thing to do would just be to find one in good condition. Keep posting what catches your attention. At the very least it's worth discussing. i will also keep my eye out if I see something interesting which meets your criteria
KrowGyrl Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 3:16:17 AM(UTC)
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On the eBay search terms thing, I know they do that. It's pretty bad but if you read the whole listing carefully, including the chart that the good dealers use to outline the details, you learn a lot. RugPro, I have seen a lot of listings that might say Persian Sarouk Rug on the heading but when you read down, it's machine made from wherever. But the ones that list Sarouk, made in Iran, knot count, 100 handmade, wool on cotton etc. .... are you saying these guys are also fibbing? If so, who have you seen diong this? Not challenging you at all, but I need to know because I buy from these guys. So far I have never gotten one rug that I felt I had been mislead or it was not what they claimed. With the exception of the diamond pattern sand colored rug I posted a while back, which was what uit said it was, it was just flawed and the flaws had been blurred out. On that, I knew I was walking into a box canyon. But it was cheap enough and I liked it enough to keep it if it wasn't right. And it was not one of the major players on the eBay rug scene.
RugPro Offline
#14 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:46:12 AM(UTC)
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Sorry to hijack the forum mosaic.

I'm not saying what people get on ebay is not worth the money, but what I am saying is a lot of these sellers, knowingly or not, misadvertise the rugs. My feeling is that there are 5 types of rugs even a novice knows and can relate to. Tabriz, kashan, isfahan, heriz, sarouk. The first rug below, it may be a similar design to some from sarouk, but the quality, I believe, points to Arak. No one knows arak, but there often is a big difference between araks and sarouks. But the seller chooses to go with a sarouk as the title description.

Below, there are several items relating specifically to rugs called sarouks but I believe are not. Each one I have a specific reason why i do not believe them to be sarouks. if you wish me to elaborate I can do so, otherwise, you will see why I have selected this examples. I am not saying these rugs are good deals or bad deals. I am not bashing the sellers, I am merely pointing out that not all these rugs are what one in the industry would call "appropriately advertised"

This is from queens international 99.9% feedback

They call this a Sarouk, but it's more likely from Arak

rugnroll
99.4% feedback

this rug looks like a malayer

fairfax 99.2% positive

This is not a sarouk mahal. It's a ardekan with a golden wash which turns reds to light brown and tea washes other colors.

artsick 99.6% positive

This is a hamadan with sarouk design
. Look at the knots

Gallery99 99.7% positive feedback:
This is a lower grade isfahan with a hint of kashan. no way is it sarouk

New York Rug Gallery
99.9% feedback
I think this is Mashad

RugPro Offline
#15 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:55:15 AM(UTC)
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for stuff like this, you cant rely on google images either. other inventories from big sellers outside of ebay are skewed too. out of the some 217 items on ebay that were showing as sarouk, less than 20 that I saw were properly attributed. this is a buyer beware market on ebay, many sellers used multiple listings with incorrect terminology of which I wanted to show as many sellers as possible rather than the same seller misadvertising
KrowGyrl Offline
#16 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:56:52 AM(UTC)
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I see what you are saying. The Arak and Melayer are obvious. I have a few of each. Particularly the Arak called Sarouk .... kind of weird. I guess it's Sarouk's lucky day and everything is a Sarouk because it's the trendy name at the moment, or one of them. Oh well. I am glad I have spent as much time on there as I have, not only buying but just looking and comparing and watching and researching Fortunately, I haven't bought from any of those sellers besides Rug N Roll.
RugPro Offline
#17 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:59:56 AM(UTC)
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the list gets worse as you go down the line. The fairfax rug was horrible. take a look at the change in dye lots that didn't react to the golden wash. fairfax are keyword people. look how many different types of rugs they call this too http://rover.ebay.com/ro...&mtid=824&kw=lg

while not the best indicator, it does say something that this ardekan beyond recognition is still the standard 10x13 size they usually produce....
RugPro Offline
#18 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:07:01 AM(UTC)
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the thing about the arak that's called a sarouk is it could be a sarouk if the quality of wool and knot count were higher, but they're not. the pile is also sheered very thin. I don't care what anyone says, eBay is the ultimate buyer beware market when it comes to rugs. There is no governing, checks, balance, and certainly no buyer will spend the time to properly research with many books and experience what these rugs should be termed. On the lighter side, it doesn't appear as though any of these prices are incredibly inflated, but cetainly it tarnishes honest sellers in the business when a rug with no veggie dyes is advertised as having them on ebay, and people believe this. How is an honest seller to compete with this? Most people blow off the reputable brick and mortar store because they think prices are high, but often you're paying for safety, security and the truth! something has to uphold whatever integrity is left in this business.
KrowGyrl Offline
#19 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:39:50 AM(UTC)
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something has to uphold whatever integrity is left in this business. >>>

I understand and empathize with you RugPro. I am not pushing eBay even though I reference it. My big buying spree on there was prior to my launch into a real education in rugs. And for the record, I never have sold on eBay nor do I plan to. As my teacher in the rug class said (and he was an old time brick and mortar guy) no one in their right mind would buy a rug sight unseen. To which I could only sit there and go ..... Whistle

We live and learn. And I am with you on integrity. I would rather throw a rug in the garbage than lie or mislead a buyer.
RugPro Offline
#20 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:52:21 AM(UTC)
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Ebay can be a great place. I'm not saying anything about your purchases cause you have brought some nice looking pieces to the table here.

I think I'm right in the middle with everything. I think it's been said before, but I cant say it's impossible to make a good purchase online. It certainly is difficult though. So I guess I don't really side with your professor either (like the smilies by the way). The worst things that cannot be seen by photographs are odor, dry rot, and sometimes surfaced warps, splits, lazy stitching, some repairs, foundation and patches. However, with proper photographs of poor areas, the only thing really posing a threat would be dry rot and odor, and in some cases you can see signs of both of these.

I do think there are ways to make margin of error smaller when purchasing online, for example bringing a rug to this forum for review I think can and may make things apparent which would otherwise not be seen in photographs unless a familiar eye sees it. I'm not saying we can catch everything by looking at photographs, but it certainly helps. Most sellers would not go to the point of being decptive and alter photographs, but even still, a lot of these alterations I can catch sometimes. and as the verifications state, its in the best interest of the seller to accurately describe condition, genre and age of rugs.
KrowGyrl Offline
#21 Posted : Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:17:25 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, well, when I first started looking at ebay, I noticed some dealers have a lot of great photos, seemed to give good clear clsoeups of the problem areas the named, and I took a chance. And I was never disappointed by any of the dealers I selected as my core group. Maybe I got duped and dind't know it, but they are still good looking rugs, they're all hand made so I don't feel sleazy about them. But there have been a lot of photos I wouldn't trust if all I had riding on it was a wooden nickle. I do know my direction is going to be changing a bit. I have what I need so far and want to start getting a few older pieces that are purely tribal, and some textiles. I think I'd like to take a weaving class or two, just to really understand down to the raw nerve level what the process is like with my own fingers. I have worked in silver and bronze and there is no way you can understand metals without grabbing them and getting to know them.
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