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...is this for real?
mosaic08 Offline
#1 Posted : Friday, June 13, 2008 7:20:11 PM(UTC)
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okay, i saw this add and it just begged the question...is it for real?

http://orangecounty.crai....org/fur/713707353.html

thanks...
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Friday, June 13, 2008 11:13:16 PM(UTC)
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wow, sure is for real. That's a pretty old rug, although I would say it's more along the 1880's - 1905 but it could be even older. These Kermans that had a more loose design usually have more age on them, but you can't always say without seeing.

I guess most people would call this a lavar kerman, although I see it has hints of what were later called "milfleur" pattern. It's kinda tough to decipher because it's so worn. Looks to be around a 4.6x7 or so. Something like this in the condition it appears to be in rarely fetches more than $600 retail, but if I saw it up close I might say different. What's he asking and all that jazz?
mosaic08 Offline
#3 Posted : Saturday, June 14, 2008 4:01:55 AM(UTC)
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...he's asking 2000. now did you say it'd be worth in the 600 range because of condition, or more... yes, it does look pretty worn and it's more than i could spend right now, but i really like these old pieces... i simply marvel at the handmade quality... so, would it be out of line to offer $250....plus shipping :)
RugPro Offline
#4 Posted : Saturday, June 14, 2008 5:47:00 AM(UTC)
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lol, 2000 seems high. I say this primarily because of what appears to be its present, poor, condition. On ebay, I've seen several of these 4x7s sell in the $300 area, and they seemed to have similar condition problems. I'm not saying what this guy has isn't worth it necessarily, but there are many nice pieces that are similar for less money. I wonder where the 2K came from. This is like a replacement or insurance appraisal value maybe.

RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Saturday, June 14, 2008 5:53:25 AM(UTC)
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Take a look at this old Kirman. It's probably every bit of 100 years old, 9.6'x7', and an estimate 300-450. It appears to be in slightly better condition than this craigslist rug. It would be interesting to see where this one goes...
KrowGyrl Offline
#6 Posted : Saturday, June 14, 2008 6:20:23 AM(UTC)
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What my teacher in the class has been doing that is interesting, is taking carpets, throwing them on the floor, and then telling us what they would bring wholesale if they were in super condition, and then taking away moneu based on poor condition, on each type of poor condition that he points out, and then if there is a need for repair, what it would cost, offset with the end price etc. Very eye-opening and interesting, and really opens a whole new window onto the value of these different rugs. We saw some beauties the other night.
mosaic08 Offline
#7 Posted : Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:21:04 AM(UTC)
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...yes, that is exactly what i'm looking for, but slightly larger, in perfect condition and for only $400! :) actually, i'd like to bid on this rug, but i'm a little leary about ebay...i like the wild west mentality of craigslist... i feel craigslist has more of the "i have no idea if this is worth something and i just want it gone" mentality that makes for better bargins... i think most people on craigslist thinks everything they sell is worth a billion dollars...no of course i could be really wrong, but i enjoy craigslist for now... and yes, there are obvious people, like this one, who is asking for the world and of course i'm not going to give it to him...

...but this begs a question in my mind... what should i be looking for in terms of what is the most desirable and valuable? obviously a very open-ended question, and i know you should buy what you like, but for instance...what would be the type of rug that would very marketable and worth the hassle of buying and shipping and blah, blah, blah...
KrowGyrl Offline
#8 Posted : Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:43:33 AM(UTC)
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In my class, our teacher, and "teacher" is a loose term, this guy is a 75 year old Persian rug dealer from Tehran from several generations. So it's not like some geek sitting up there regurgitating what he has memorized from books. Now, I love the carpets I have gotten, and don't regret any of them. And the carpets he is showing are all much older than most of mine. But he says again and again ... if you are really trying to be an intelligent buyer, don't buy anything you haven't seen first hand. Some of the eBay sellers have multiple pictures that are damn bear as good as being there. Some do not. And, I have learned to be very wary of large areas of wear too obvious wear. Unless one just falls in love with such a piece, it might be a mistake.
RugPro Offline
#9 Posted : Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:18:04 AM(UTC)
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That rug I posted closed a lot more, something in the mid twos - but that give you an idea of where the market is. The one on ebay is actually a live auction, which means that it's a legitimate auction house which also just happens to be posting the rug on ebay for online bidders should they be interested.

It would be tough to find something 10x8 or larger for around $400 antique in perfect condition. That's not to say it's impossible, but it's highly unlikely. I think I told krow before there was a customer of mine who came in and told us about a very large rug which was in a rental she had. The landlord asked her if she wanted the rug when she was leaving behind the lease. He gave it to her free of charge, she accepted after many years of liking it, then found out the rug was some valuable Indian carpet which sold at auction around $80,000 +. So I guess the point is you certainly can come across some serious bargains, but it has a lot to do with the right time and place as with anything else. To me, it seems like the Persian Rug market is taking a hard upswing with these old pieces.

Yes ebay can be a crapshoot, and more often than not, you're going to get burned. The problem is that even people on craigslist buy rugs on ebay to sell locally, just look at UES on craigslist. Sifting through these can be tough, at least here in NY I would imagine. The other problem is people bring these rugs they've had for years to auctioneers, get an estimate, and then think they can sell it for the same price. I went to a yard sale just yesterday. There was a beautiful old Karabagh rug which was in fair condition. I looked at the price tag, then asked the owner what they knew about the piece. It was probably 3x4 or so, she knew nothing about it and the price tag said $2000!!!! I looked at them as though they were crazy. She said she had it appraised by an auctioneer. The problem here is 1, she had no evidence of such, 2, you cant ask the same price that an auctioneer would fetch if you're an individual. There's something prestigious about purchasing a rug which was published in a sotheby's auction cat. that you have that item printed and imaged on paper, and have the rug on your floor. Private party value, forget it! What people do is they hear what they want. They're told the rug is worth 1000 replacement value, $400 retail (for example) and try to sell the thing for $1000 when private party should be at least 30% less than retail! ridiculous - the point is, even craigslist is going to have its pitfalls, as I believe the case is with the kerman posted earlier.

As for what to look for with these rugs, I mean the first and most important thing with older rugs is condition. 1: Condition means everything. I have one rug I bought not too long ago that if it were in excellent to near mint condition, it would probably be worth $15,000 retail. However, in the present condition, it's probably worth no more than $600. After condition, I would have to say goodness of fit: does it meet your criteria. Rugs are meant to serve utility and art. If it does not meet your design and style needs, it does not serve it's purpose. Now, if you want a more straightforward answer than this, your best bet is to go with "timeless designs and colors" as Dave would say. Otherwise, there are certain Persian rugs the market seems to have forgotten. Silk heriz carpets for example almost always seem break estimates by a fair amount , however other notable classes of rugs seem somewhat depreciated.

What is most desirable and valuable? Honestly I would stay away from pictorial rugs, prayer rugs have never had a strong backing here, I would stay away from rugs that have been painted, dyed after production. I would stay away from brightly colored carpets, or rugs with dizzying patterns and other. Trust your instinct - if you think most people would consider the rug ugly yet you like it, the rug probably doesn't have the investment potential you're looking for. But hey, trends change...
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#10 Posted : Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:52:59 PM(UTC)
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Just saw the for fist time. Right here is 3 credit course. I have now come to some of the data herein on my own, and this confirms those. Also, had I seen this earlier, I would not have been able to really own much of it.
In learning....there are no shortcuts.
RugTiger Offline
#11 Posted : Friday, March 6, 2009 2:09:03 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:

Yes ebay can be a crapshoot, and more often than not, you're going to get burned. The problem is that even people on craigslist buy rugs on ebay to sell locally, just look at UES on craigslist. Sifting through these can be tough, at least here in NY I would imagine. The other problem is people bring these rugs they've had for years to auctioneers, get an estimate, and then think they can sell it for the same price.


Hi,

First time poster here. I was going through the forum here and noticed this reference to someone I had seen advertise on my 'local' craigslist, namely the "persian UES" dealer who is very prolific on craigslist. Now, I feel like I must be missing the drift of the conversation because I can't tell if this is a positive or negative reference to them. I'm interested because I was thinking of calling them up to go check out some of the rugs - but if it's a clear waste of time, I'd be more than happy to take your advice and save myself the trip! :)
RugPro Offline
#12 Posted : Saturday, March 7, 2009 8:34:29 AM(UTC)
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Hi RugTiger, welcome

I don't think there's any harm in going out there to take a look. They may offer options like return and other which might now work out so well with an ebay store. It looks like they may use the same images from ebay to advertise on CL (see camera watermark), but they're NY, and most of the sellers with this merchandise are from VA, NC, etc.

Prices will probably be very negotiable, so that's something to bear in mind.

The two below are not exactly the same, but may help if you find something you like and want a bit of leverage.

RugPro attached the following image(s):
UES.jpg
rug-on-ebay-similar.jpg
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