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What is this worth?
kpsunil Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:30:37 AM(UTC)
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Hello,
I received this as a house warming gift from a close relative. Trying to ascertain if this is what the label claims to be and if the value is what rug rag's appraisal tool claims. This is a 8X10.5, Afghan, Chobi, hand made rug. (Reading information from the tags. I wouldn't know) There are also some thing in the tags that is in a foreign language.
How does one know if this is really not made in NJ !!

I also am planning to buy another rug for my Dining room, after due research. So, any information that I come across on this particular piece will be useful in future.
Thanks a bunch.

Please see the pictures attached.
kpsunil attached the following image(s):
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 27, 2008 7:29:46 PM(UTC)
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Hello and Welcome

This is a hand knotted carpet, the word chobi has a loose translation as "of the earth" or "wooded" which has the implication of natural dyes being used in the rug. Some sellers might even call this a peshuar. It's tough to say the value on these specific types of rugs without seeing them, but I can tell you with most certainty, it probably is from Afghanistan or Pakistan, it hand knotted wool pile on cotton foundation.

The design is nice, but in terms of quantifying quality on these types of newer rugs, they really need to be seen in person. A rug like this, if it is not an "internet seconds good", if purchased at retail store, would most likely be anywhere from $2000 - $3,300 or so. But when things like this come from the internet, they're sometimes goods which represent great on the monitor, but not good in person (quality wise). Some of these rugs may have had defects that a customer would not see, and subsequently could be had for significantly less. Maybe even as low as say $500 - 800 or so. While this is not to say the rugs are no good online, you do have to know there are some serious elements of risk. Determination of quality takes many years of experience which is gauged primarily by weight, feel, design execution, colors, consistency of weaving etc. The funny thing is that in the past, there are certain genre's of rugs whereby the quality has been very predictable just from looking at a photograph. This includes older kermans, chinese 90 lines, rugs that have a very specific quality standard within their categories. For these new chobi, peshuwar etc., it seems as though these rugs are being made on a much wider range of qualities. You can count the knots, you can check the yarn ply... but when push comes to shove, if the quality of wool is junk, so is the rug.

How many KPSI is the rug?
kpsunil Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:47:24 AM(UTC)
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KPSI is around 81-100. I can count 9/10 knots every linear inch.

Also, the manufacturer/distributor label on the back is "A M C". There is apparently a manufacturer "AMC". I did not get many internet references on them. Also, there is some word scribbled in a foreign language at the back. Does it make any sense.

Thanks a bunch for getting back so fast.
KrowGyrl Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 3:09:48 AM(UTC)
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Some of these rugs may have had defects that a customer would not see, and subsequently could be had for significantly less. Maybe even as low as say $500 - 800 or so >>>>

And I am sure these are some of the ones I have bought. The thing is, many people cannot afford $3,000. for a carpet, but they can afford $500-$800. and they derserve to have something wonderful that has more life than a piece of plastic crap from Walmart. And I hope every one of these people finds me! :)
RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 4:54:50 AM(UTC)
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KrowGyrl wrote:
The thing is, many people cannot afford $3,000. for a carpet, but they can afford $500-$800. and they deserve to have something wonderful that has more life than a piece of plastic crap from Walmart.


I completely agree, the only problem i have is if the production of such rugs interferes with the lineage of Oriental Rugs, that's not okay with me. There is no standardized quality to expect for carpets. If you get a rug that's a lemon, it's no good. People also have to be accountable to their customers. For example, this rug could very well be a 2-3,000 rug going by the look, and quality. The problem I have is if people are selling these rugs that look like $2500, but will only give the service of a $600. The only people who will know about this is the importer themselves.

I'm not trying to bash anything, just kinda giving a background here. Like I said before, the story about the call back goods... The exporter sent them to the US, the importer realized the defect and sold them back to a contact the exporter knew here in the States. Several months later, these rugs had been liquidated for a fraction of their original WHOLESALE price. They looked like $40 a square foot rugs, but took foot traffic as poorly as any kmart rug. This is why price asked for a carpet really should be determined by price paid for the piece, and not too far from the source.

kpsunil - I have a question for you that is a little on the unusual side and may help determine more about this rug. When I see this type of carpet, I get suspicious of the density of the wool. Is there any way you can try to weigh it? The best way to do this would be to fold the rug in half, then fold each end, then roll it and rope it. Just look at the pictures here if you have questions
If it's too much of a problem don't bother. As for the AMC, I don't recall this importer, although they could be well regarded in the industry there are many which don't carry significant recognition despite their rugs.
KrowGyrl Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 5:28:53 AM(UTC)
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I understand what you are saying RugPro. But I would add this, from my years around the high fashion industry and related crowds in NYC. Do you think the fake Louis Vuitton bags that sell on Canal Street for $30 interfere with the $5,000. Louis Vuitton luggage at the Vuitton store on Fifth Avenue? Hell no! What about the Chanel T-shirt on the subway compared to the Chanel suit sitting in the back of a black sedan? No. Because never the twain shall meet in society. The customer who will be duped, is not the customer who can afford the $10,000 rug, because that class of people, as you know, is very very savy when it comes to quality and lineages. There is a Rubicon between these classes, whether people want to acknowledge it or not. Like me. I am not buying and jockeying with the people importing $20,000 rugs. And the guy who comes to the flea market and is willing to buy from me, is not shopping for one either. That's just the facts of life. The guy who would buy from me in the funky little store I will have, is not buying on madison Avenue either. I wold not worry. While in theory, your concerns are very valid. In practice, I think it is a very different matter. People with high end taste educate themselves. They spot things instantly, they know. It's amazing to be around it. I am not one of them, but I paddle in and out of the periphery of these folks at various junctures. The levels and textures of sense and awareness if staggering in many cases.
RugPro Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 6:36:13 AM(UTC)
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Sorry kpsunil for hijacking this thread, just ignore our banter or feel free to join in.

The only thing is that a Louis Vutton bag has slightly better transparency than Oriental Rugs. You know what you're getting when you pay $30 for a LV bag, and you can be more than certain it's not the real thing. A great deal of the value has to do with what is perceived. In fact, I believe that if anything, the amount of fake LV bags actually reinforces the retail prices of authentic bags. The more fakes that are out there, in my opinion, the more recognized and therefore more valuable the original becomes.

I totally agree with you and am certainly not going to argue what only seems true to me. What I have a problem with is those sellers who are asking the LV price for a fake LV bag -although this seems a little outrageous because with rugs the price difference between a good and seconds good would have a significantly smaller gap.

Keep in mind, my concerns have nothing to do with the "conflict" of a inferior and normal good. I'm talking about an blatant disregard for current market prices. The point I am trying to make is that while one may be able to get a good deal, I do not consider eBay a "wholesale outlet". There is a reason why many people in the business avoid purchasing online. The risks are too high, margin too small, and quite honestly many of the goods are not of the quality which would most retailers would have in their stores. HOWEVER, I entirely support and encourage the furnishing of a beautiful home. While some people cannot afford the $5000 rug, it doesn't seem right to me to see these rugs that can be had on eBay for $200 shipped to the door to see them wind up on Craigslist AND SELL for $1200. That is not what I would consider fair business practice. Everyone needs to have a meal... but shame on the seller who tries to dress a wolf in sheep's clothing, and expect to pull the wool over their client's eyes.

The thing is, we're not talking about a fake and a real rug. Comparing an original bag and a fake bag is a good example, although the difference is far more than the utility. Although a real LV bag will most definitely outlast a fake, there is the question of utility which comes up. The key concept here is that a real LV will look newer for longer. Same goes for these rugs which of better quality. Although with Oriental rugs, the point I am making is that most people can't distinguish between the good rug and the junk rug which are woven in the same factory with the same KPSI and everything. Unfortunately, many of us judge quality and authenticity by price. In fact, some of these LV fakes pull it off great. Not only do the bags appear to be fairly close to the original, but other indicators that we perceive play into our senses. First we recognize the location. You're on a street of NYC, and you see the bags. 1 - it's either a 5 finger discount or 2, it's a fake. Then you assess the seller. If he doesn't seem nervous, it's probably not a 5 finger discount. This then leaves the option of a fake. So you assess the price: When you see the price, you can make a fairly good assumption that this would not be a authentic bag. But Krow, the point I am making is this: People also use the price as such a value indicator. I'm talking about two different qualities of rugs that most people would not be able to distinguish, and what I'm also saying is that you don't have the benefit of having a price to be an indicator all the time - Many sellers will charge the price of a good rug, even when it's a seconds good.

When we talk about about good quality of rugs, it should go further than assessing imperfections: those outside aesthetics. E.G. anything which may compromise the structural integrity of the carpet, or the longevity of such a piece. This would encompass imperfections such as uneven weaving techniques, uneven sheering, too hard of a washing process (weakening fibers)... It goes on but you know what I mean. The thing is these didn't used to be a concern. With the influx of so many poorly made carpets, the need to distinguish between the good and the bad is more important than ever before, as many of these GOB sellers, travelling auctions and others will specifically truck these inferior seconds goods in for, and only for, their sale. That is to say, many of these people actually continue to import goods after the sale has started. If they have no long term vested interest in business standing... You have to understand these people are cut throat. They will buy junk rugs rejected by importers for a couple dollars a ft. and still ask the price of the same rug without any problems. Buy Low, Sell High. But this is not honest business practice when the goods started with are inferior by nature.

We were talking about this before. I understand if someone gets a great deal on a piece, and they don't want to part with it because of what it is to them. That's fine. But when someone gets an appropriate deal for a seconds good, but inflates the price 6, 7 even 8 fold what it should be and then sell it. That's not only commonplace, but very, very wrong. I don't have a problem with the flea market seller, I don't have a problem with the Park ave. seller. Both clientel are very different crowds with different needs. I think it's great to sell flea market, but from my experience, I like to know that if I go to one, I'm not going to be told something is one thing when it's not. I don't want to have the first price come out of the sellers mouth be 4 fold what they're actually willing to sell the item for. I don't mind negotiating, but I know the next guy may accept the first number off the bat. Tough luck for him, but the fact of the matter is, a fair market price is a fair market price. While I don't expect the world to be honest, I do believe there certainly is a time and place and value for most everything.

I honestly believe the only rug you can honestly price outside of a fair market value would be one which is incredbily rare. I'm not saying one can't buy off ebay and sell for 3 fold what they purchased for - you absolutely can, but every so often one will have to accept the risks involved and sell at cost. It's a push and pull, but when it all comes down to it, after all is said and done: It's not about the different crowds, it's about the value provided, and the integrity of the seller behind the item.
KrowGyrl Offline
#8 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 8:02:27 AM(UTC)
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Yes indeed RugPro, I hear you and I really do agree. If it appears that I don't get it sometimes, it's because of the learning gaps and curves I am still going through. I don't understand the pricing of these rugs, clearly. But neither am I trying to sell them for vast amounts of money. But neither did I understand the nature of the whole eBay buying scene when I started out. And maybe, just maybe, I thought, for my market, I had discovered the Mother Lode. Live and learn and this is why this forum is so useful for me. I have lowered the prices on my blog a few times after reading things here. Not because I had been trying to scam anyone, but because I just didn't know. I have never gone on Craig's List, but I can imagine someone buying a $200 rug and passing it off tearfully on there as their dead grandmother's heirloom that they can't bear to keep around because it will remind them of her so they are letting it go for a song at $5,000. We've all seen that.
RugPro Offline
#9 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 9:37:41 AM(UTC)
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Im not at all saying that it doesn't hold good potential. I encourage it and I think it's an awesome way to go, and I also have to say you have extremely good taste which also is obviously on your side. Forgive me if I rant a little you know how it goes, I start typing and next thing you know I've written four pages of craziness. Do they still hold the flea market around houston st. on sunday's? or am I just remembering things all wrong...
KrowGyrl Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 10:05:21 AM(UTC)
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Forgive me if I rant a little >>>>>

Not on your life. The ranting is what I come here for. I am soaking it all up. Fascinating stuff. This is the kind of thing you don't find in books and classrooms, people's opinions and gut level experience. Rant on bruthah!

The flea market I use is the Hells Kitchen. they have three locations and some are quite good and have a regular clientele. A great resource. It's kind of a flea market with a capitol FM.
RugPro Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 10:16:12 AM(UTC)
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Sounds awesome, I have to check it out sometime.

I remember going to a Flea Market some while back in the city. Must have been 10 years ago or so. I saw a pocket watch with my friend... It was beautiful and she absolutely adored it. We asked the seller how much he wanted and he said 5 bucks. My eyes must have come out of their sockets, although immediately the seller kicked in saying the watch didn't work. So we wound it up, and sure enough it was busted. I guess at the time it was just something to have as a token, even if it did end up being a paper weight.

After the long train ride back home, we finally arrived tired. After a couple minutes of relaxing, we heard this very light tapping noise coming from the windowsill where I put all the stuff in my pocket. The watch had begun to work, and did so for many years afterwards.
KrowGyrl Offline
#12 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 10:27:07 AM(UTC)
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The watch had begun to work, and did so for many years afterwards. >>>>

What a great story! At Hells Kitchen, the three lots, there are a few vendors that have really fine high end stuff, but you have to know. My one friend is known for buying a lot of high end stuff, for himself and for his House (the 29 room castle). So he is known around those lots. So when we go, he will sweep the area and then get prices and then have me go back and ask for a price on the same stuff and ALWAYS they quote me a much cheaper price because they know him and they know he spends and they jack the prices up. It's a shark tank and you have to be aware.
kpsunil Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 12:29:04 PM(UTC)
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Let me see what I can do about weighing this. Not very sure if I can do it. I will have to "trick" my wife! Any suggestions on where I can take this for weighing (other than my bathroom scale)? By the way, the total thickness of the carpet is around 4/10".

I have another Chinese, Wool/Silk, Hand Made, 8 X 11 rug purchased for $1000 from Costco 4 years ago. That is much thicker than this carpet that we are discussing. As a newbie to this arena, I would have 'valued' it much higher than this Chobi. But RugRag's tool thinks other wise.
KrowGyrl Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 12:41:17 PM(UTC)
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8 X 11 rug purchased for $1000 from Costco 4 years ago>>>

Costco is selling $1000 rugs?
kpsunil Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 12:50:11 PM(UTC)
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??$$@
Too much? Too cheap?Mine is from early 2004. Now, when I look at Costco, they have 8X10 rugs as high as $2200. See the sample

http://www.costco.com/Br...p;Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|50127|56615|4489|4503&N=4017613&Mo=28&pos=1&No=12&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=4503&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&ec=BC-EC10595-Cat56615&topnav=national
RugPro Offline
#16 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 12:56:13 PM(UTC)
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there's a home depot I believe near Chelsea Piers that had a couple $5000 rugs a while back I believe. This is going on what someone told me. I never saw it myself.

Kpsunil - I'm curious what tool you're using on rugrag. There's the detailed quote and the quick quote. I can help you with either one, I also know they haven't incorporated every rug in. This carpet from Costco, does it shed a lot, and is it carved?

Also, if weighing is too much of a problem don't worry about it. It's a simple way to get a better idea of what this wool is. What I'm trying to determine is the better quality Chobi type rugs are usually made of Gazni wool, which [usually] weighs in a little heavier than the same rug with comparable knot count. It's not the best indicator, but seeing as we're discussing over the Internet, I want to give you as good information as possible. If the bathroom scale works ok, I think this should be suitable. If you know it's off significantly, scratch the idea.


KrowGyrl Offline
#17 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 12:56:30 PM(UTC)
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I'll defer to RugPro and others on this. But Costco is not a rug dealer, they are a discount wholesaler/retailer. If that means anything.
KrowGyrl Offline
#18 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 12:58:32 PM(UTC)
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home depot I believe near Chelsea Piers that had a couple $5000 rugs >>>>

What planet are we on?
KrowGyrl Offline
#19 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:04:52 PM(UTC)
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home depot I believe near Chelsea Piers that had a couple $5000 rugs >>>>

What planet are we on? >>>>

What I mean by that of course, is that if I were in NYC partic ularly, and I have a crisp $5K note in my purse and was shopping for a carpet and I had the choice between strolling into a place on Madison or Fifth, or a Home Depot near Chelsea Piers ..... I wouldn't be going anywhere near Home Depot. Home Depot is where I buy nails and joint compound. Nor would I buy investment art work or a wedding ring there.
RugPro Offline
#20 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:12:21 PM(UTC)
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Costco, Ikea, Home Depot in general have been known over the years has been known to stock very cheap Area Rugs in terms of price and quality. While this may be different depending on location in the States, stores that I have seen stocking rugs have a disproportionately high ratio of bad rugs to good. I have seen in rare instances some better quality goods, although often times they're not available through the local store. There were several auctions hosted by a Sams club and Costco which featured bad prices, and poor quality. Hypothetically: If I were to have these in inventory, (which I wouldn't), we would probably sell them significantly less than Costco. It's all about perceived value. Some things there have a great bang for the buck, almost what some would consider a loss leader. But when it comes to the rugs, they have the advantage of coming across as a "wholesaler," when in reality they're taking advantage of the perceived value perceived by customers. Not to say you won't get your money out of their goods, but most that I have seen would show wear very quickly, and certainly better values can be found from specialty Rug stores.

These rugs you linked to here, it could be one of several things. Either Costco has contracted an importer to manage the area rug department (which could very well be the case, but I doubt) or, they are purchasing on the wholesale level without actually stocking certain items, and distributing them as orders come in.

Interesting find

RugPro Offline
#21 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:14:15 PM(UTC)
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KrowGyrl wrote:
Home Depot is where I buy nails and joint compound. Nor would I buy investment art work or a wedding ring there.


I don't disagree, there is less virtue in purchasing an Oriental Rug from a Home Depot, although hey, it is easy to do everything at one place.
kpsunil Offline
#22 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:16:09 PM(UTC)
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I am using the detailed quote on the site.

The chinese silk/wool rug has held up pretty well. Not carved. We do have a heavy coffee table on top though.

This rug, when I look at the back and determine the KPSI, is definitely finer than the Chobi, which I estimated as 81 KPSI. And so, I am selecting "Good, 99-130" as my KPSI for my costco rug. If I select this as "hand made", the value comes out to be close to $2300. If not, it is still $1900.
kpsunil attached the following image(s):
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RugPro Offline
#23 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:20:47 PM(UTC)
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hmm, do you have pics of the rug? The detailed quote is good, but remember, just because a rug is finer, doesn't mean it's of higher quality or should appraise for more. Different countries have different labor rates, available weavers, etc. You should be able to copy and paste a link from the appraisal at the bottom of the page. That way I could take a look.
kpsunil Offline
#24 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:21:35 PM(UTC)
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I just added 4 pictures to my earlier post. I also have to say that we do not get a lot of foot traffic in this Costco rug area.
<a href='http://www.RugRag.com/AppraisalViewer.aspx?QueryID=83B1F593-EF92-4272-9AD4-E017150A6417'>RugRag.com Appraisal Value</a>
RugPro Offline
#25 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:25:26 PM(UTC)
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Ahhh, ok. The rug does have some very pretty colors and nice pattern. The only thing is that although this is a hand made carpet, it's not what one would consider a hand knotted rug which is what the appraisal tool is designed for.

This is where it gets tricky, because a hand knotted rug will look the same on the front as it does on the back - but often times a machine made carpet does too. For this rug, it's a tufted carpet, which doesn't use traditional weaving methods to produce. They start with a canvas backing and punch thread through, then glue them into place. For hand knotted, they actually take the wool, wrap it around a foundation into a "knot" and then sheer the face. This is why you see the canvas on a tufted rug, and knots on the woven rug.

Just to give you an idea, and I'm not sure what size this rug is that you photographed, but retail in NEW condition, a wool pile silk highlight (this looks to be a dense one too) hand tufted carpet will be in the vicinity of $8-25 per square foot for good to excellent quality.

Out of curiousity, do you catch a rubber smell from the tufted rug?
kpsunil Offline
#26 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:32:55 PM(UTC)
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Maaaan, you are making me smell carpets!
Yes, If I fold it and smell the back, I can get a faint rubber smell.
So, where is "hadn" being used in this process. You mean this 'punching' through and glueing is done by hand. By the way, are machine made rugs completely automated?
RugPro Offline
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RugPro Offline
#28 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 1:38:58 PM(UTC)
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hahahaha, part of being involved with the forum is being humiliated..... Sniffing the rug. lol. sorry - not a hazing thing or anything, consider it endearing.

To answer your question, the hand, or the human element is in following the color coded backing to determine what color or shade of yarn goes where. The hand part is feeding the wool into a tufting gun (which literally looks like a simple gun with tiny scissors at the end to clip the yarn), and literally the people stab the canvas, pull the gun out, and the thread is left behind. That's what hand tufting is. Kinda hard to explain I guess, but they use similar procedures with hand hooking I believe.

Machine made rugs are for the most part completely automated, although certain elements of the process I'm not entirely clear on, I know there's literally little human help in production other than designing, providing fibers for and facilitating the machines. So I guess they are automated
KrowGyrl Offline
#29 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 2:45:24 PM(UTC)
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Location: Yonkers, NY
Those photos of the comparison shots between hand lnotted and machine made and hand tufted are superb. That's an incredibly helpful tool for those not "in the know" about the differences. Does this site welcome people linking it to their sites, by any chance?
Tabriz Offline
#30 Posted : Monday, April 28, 2008 5:21:01 PM(UTC)
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Groups: Member

Joined: 2/9/2008(UTC)
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Location: Westchester, NY
kpsunil wrote:

How does one know if this is really not made in NJ !!

I also am planning to buy another rug for my Dining room, after due research. So, any information that I come across on this particular piece will be useful in future.
Thanks a bunch.

Please see the pictures attached.


funny kpsunil how do i not know this is made in new jersey lol. how did you get this rug and what do you pay this look like ebay rug?

gyrl i know they say okay to link
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