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Is this a raj 60 rug?
verygooduser Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 10, 2011 5:13:04 AM(UTC)
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Hi,
I am staring to get a feel for this black magic otherwise known a Persian carpet estimation.
Are we looking at a min raj 60 Tabriz in this one?
It is a 2mx1.5m. There are more knots in the direction of the warp per cm than in the weft direction indicated by the ruler. According to my not so perfect counting there 10x7=70knots/cm which makes it roughly 450 KPSI.
What your assessment of this rug qualitatively and what's a fair retail value?
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Rugfirm Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:36:37 AM(UTC)
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This type of new Persian Tabriz could be either a 50 or 60 raj. With the silk foundation (I think), the "looks" of the rug, and your counting of the knot density, this is more likely higher than a 50 raj. In recent years, the rug industry has witnessed too much emphasis on KPSI. There are so many other factors determining the value of a rug. What is the advantage of having a personal Limo with 8 doors to a family of four? Keep in mind that the KPSI in the direction of the warp and the weft are seldom the same and that is normal. A fair market value for this rug would be $2500-$2800 for a private buyer if it is in mint condition showing no signs of wear whatsoever.
verygooduser Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:38:47 AM(UTC)
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I guess the reason why there is an increasing emphasis on knot count is because retailers almost always put a premium on that, which in turn drives less sophisticated customers (that is the vast majority) to consider that as a leading indicator of quality. The diamond industry does the same too with its 4-c system. It is all about dumbing down an otherwise highly diverse and opaque industry.

I think your estimate of 2000-2500 might be on the extreme low side... more reflect lowend 50raj Tabriz, not a silk foundation like the one shown here, which also contains heaps of embedded silk not just thin highlights. I offered $4000 for it, traversing a price path of $23,000, $12,000, $7500...
Little-Persia Offline
#4 Posted : Thursday, August 11, 2011 4:22:49 AM(UTC)
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The rug has 7 knots per cm so it's 7x7=49 so 50 raj.

The $2500 is low in my opinion for a retail price. Prices in Iran have shot up in the past couple of years and people are still going on old prices, however the original prices are absurd! I'd say around $4000 would be reasonable.
verygooduser Offline
#5 Posted : Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:22:42 AM(UTC)
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Little-Persia wrote:


The $2500 is low in my opinion for a retail price. Prices in Iran have shot up in the past couple of years and people are still going on old prices, however the original prices are absurd! I'd say around $4000 would be reasonable.


If merchants here price fairly with average retail markup, they'll stimulate far more demand than the few opportunistic sale transactions.. also helps with the reputation of the industry... $4000 for a quality modern production persian rug is a sweetspot for many quality minded buyers...
KAD Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2011 3:19:17 AM(UTC)
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I think the estimate of 2500 - 2800$ is realistic if you have stock bought 5 years ago. For today the 4000$ is still a fair (low) price for a Tabriz on silk base in this quality. If it is 60 raj, price higher is also still ok.

I do think the KPSI is very important for a rug in this quality. It is not important in tribal or antique rugs as much, but for new Qum, Nain and Tabriz it is one of the major issues of value due to the difference of production time.
If you have one m² real 50 raj and one m² 60 raj the difference in labour time is about 44% more for the 60 raj. So for me as a dealer it is a big issue if I buy a rug. And it will absolutely effect the price tag of the rug. But I would rather buy a beautiful 50 raj than a not so nice 60 raj just because it is finer.

Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
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verygooduser Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2011 6:58:41 AM(UTC)
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KAD wrote:

If you have one m² real 50 raj and one m² 60 raj the difference in labour time is about 44% more for the 60 raj. So for me as a dealer it is a big issue if I buy a rug. And it will absolutely effect the price tag of the rug. But I would rather buy a beautiful 50 raj than a not so nice 60 raj just because it is finer.



Interesting how extra 10 knots per raj (20% increase) requires almost 50% additional effort. Is that because knotting in silk is a more involved process?
KAD Offline
#8 Posted : Wednesday, August 17, 2011 1:38:44 AM(UTC)
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Yes, at first sight it seems to be 20%. But follow this calculation:
1 Raj is 7 cm.
50 Raj : 7 = 7,14 knots per cm / in square 7,14 x 7,14 = 50,97 knots cm² (usually 7 x 7 even = 49)
60 Raj : 7 = 8,57 knots per cm / in square 8,57 x 8,57 = 72,25 knots cm²

Take about 50 knots per cm² and multiply with 1,44 (+ 44%) you get 72.

It is not because of the silk, it is from increase not only in lenght but also in width.

So I hope this shows how important kpsi is for settting the price of a new produced fine rug.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...nTeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



Little-Persia Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, August 17, 2011 5:08:11 AM(UTC)
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Just to add to this:

In a rug this size a 50 raj rug would have 1422900 knots. A 60 raj rug has 2134350... I know, I counted Liar
fredgrower Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, August 17, 2011 5:23:13 PM(UTC)
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I can't even imagine counting that many knots...now imagine tying them on...I would charge even more!
KAD Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 18, 2011 1:20:18 AM(UTC)
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I absolutely agree with fredgrower. Rugs are way to cheep. But in all productions we see a rapid pickup in prices. I am wondering how long there will be a production remaining since even good quality indian rugs have reached prices nobody would have belived 3 years ago. This does not have a one to one effect to used rugs ince many older rugs have a design that is no longer as popular as it used to be (red Kashan or Meshed), but for rugs with designs looked after we will also see a increase.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...nTeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



Little-Persia Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, August 18, 2011 4:55:27 AM(UTC)
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I think it's going that way. There's no way production can or will continue the way it is with the way prices have soared in the past couple of years unless there are big changes in the industry.

Unless people start viewing the rugs as a serious art-form, the same way they would with sculptures and paintings, then I can't see weaving continuing in its current form.

People have stockpiles of rugs around the world, there's probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of rugs in dealers' galleries and warehouses, so to an extent the current price increases may not seem so drastic immediately - but the dilemma is do you sell your existing rugs at their old prices knowing that you'll not be able to replace them or replacing them will cost around what you're getting for them?
verygooduser Offline
#13 Posted : Saturday, August 20, 2011 8:27:47 AM(UTC)
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standard commercial practice is to sell relative to old whole sale price. If you acquire n ew stock at higher price, you raise you sell price to maintain your profit margin. That's how commodoties are priced. My understanidng in developing countries you could be charged under unfair trade practices Act of some sort if you do that.. art objects obviously follow different logic.
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