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Tabriz or not even close?
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Ghex Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:18:52 AM(UTC)
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Hello,

After getting the other two carpets mentioned in this thread Rug Value?, I saw a dealer today and they had a carpet I liked. I am trying to find out what sort of carpet it is, and, obviously, its value.

What the dealer told me: it is a Tabriz (design, I suspect, not real Tabriz carpet), hand knotted, wool on cotton with silk highlights, and was made in China.

What I found out: Looks like it could have been hand made - anyone can confirm or deny this on the basis of the attached pictures?
It looks like wool on cotton, counted 156-168kpsi. It does have some highlights of a different fiber. After the burning test, what was claimed to be silk, looks like artificial silk. However, they are about 3 silk colors predominant in the highlights: while, green, and tan. The burning test for the white silk seems to show real silk. However, the other two colors are definitely artificial silk - they both left a white ash instead of melting. That leaves me very confused: why would anyone mix real with artificial silk in the same carpet? Is it possible, probable, or it was a user error (me not paying enough attention to the white silk to notice it is artificial as well).

Finally, what would be the value of such a carpet?

Thank you.


Ghex attached the following image(s):
fringe.jpg
knot count.jpg
silk-highlights.jpg
silk-inserts-zoom.jpg
carpet.jpg
detail - cornerl.jpg
back-detail.jpg
edge-wrap.jpg
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KrowGyrl Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:40:21 AM(UTC)
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What the dealer told me: it is a Tabriz (design, I suspect, not real Tabriz carpet), hand knotted, wool on cotton with silk highlights, and was made in China. >.>>>>


Yes, "Tabriz design" can be made anywhere, even in China. A "Real" Tabriz carpet, well, the city of Tabriz is not in China, despite whatever China may be hoping for one day.
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RugPro Offline
#3 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2008 4:17:40 AM(UTC)
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Agree. A rug may be made in China but be a Tabriz design. But I got news for you, no matter how ecclectic rug designs can be, this is not a Tabriz Design from my position. While the Chinese have their own interpretations of carpets as seen in the secondary border with bouquets, the design appears to have more of an Isphahan/Kashan feel. This can be seen with the scrolling vines in both field background, and border background?. I guess in the scope of things it's neither here nor there, but theoretically, someone could call this rug an allover "Isphahan design" or "Kashan style" and be okay.

Great photos by the way. The highlights are right there and easy to see. It does appear as though the white highlights may be mercerized cotton. I have no idea though. It's not unusual for true silk to be blended with real silk. I know this sounds odd, but usually you'll see it happen almost exclusively to Indian and Chinese rugs, but usually the advertising of such will be much more transparent. Iranian rugs from my experience, I have only seen either real or fake silk. I have yet to come across one which has been blended, although I'm positive that it does exist.

It's a really nice looking rug. I have to be honest I used to be more familiar with the market on these. It looks every bit Chinese to me. I honestly would not be able to assign a high value to it: maybe around $23-28 per foot, and I think that's being generous. It's tough to say though, I've been out of it with these rugs for so long, things can change... It could be more $, but I can certainly tell you I've seen bad colors of this type sell for a lot less. Hopefully someone who has more recent experience can jump in

This rug does appear to have slight use too. you can see this by the way the fringe blooms a little at the tips, this would affect value. I also wanted to mention I counted 224, or 14x16 KPSI.
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KrowGyrl Offline
#4 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2008 5:06:36 AM(UTC)
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Also about the "real" concept. Even on eBay I have been examining one "style" of rug being offered by one seller (say ECG for example) at several different price points. At a quick glance the carpets look exactly the same. All originating in the same region of name in Iran let's say. But a closer look at the description reveals one with 100kpsi, another with 250, and a third with 475. One is cotton and wool, two are 100% wool, and one is silk. Yet they are all "real." A $30 Balouchi carpet is real too. For me this is the learning curve. Particularly given what I want to collect, own, and sell, and the price point I want to reach for more modest buyers. That said, I would rather, and do, buy "real" less expensive carpets than what we can call "fabulous fakes" costing thousands of dollars. I think my advantage is that a lot of people do not know that there are "real" carpets to be had that don't rival what you have riding in a mortgage. And that these carpets are really cool, writhing with pesonality and energy to bring to people's homes, and also, the ones I am getting, not what everybody sees every day, unless they cruise e-Bay. And if people's response is telling, then a lot of people are going wild when they see what I have. Not a lot of buyers sorry to say, given the price of gas and everything else. But it's a nice response to see that people like my eye and what I see in these babies speaks to a lot of peole as well.

That said, I have seen some of these $10,00 and higher carpets that are more refined and steriley produced, they make me sad just looking at them. Maybe I am just a freak, but this whole "Karistan" thing, I just don't get it. Unless it's just a modern or western attempt to santitize everything to the point where there is nothing human associated with it. When I want that, I go to the ATM, although the human tellers are not much better.
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RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2008 5:47:30 AM(UTC)
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Also, I just want to say Ghex you bring great photographs to this forum. I wanted to point out why I think the white may be mercerized cotton. If you look at the arrow on the left, it's pointing to a thin strand of wool, a long continuous fiber. But looking at the vertical arrow on the right pointing to the white silk highlight, you can see it appears to have a fluffy, cotton appearance to it. If this were silk, it would be comprised of straighter fibers.

Additionally, one of the most distinguishable things about Chinese rugs, other than this design which is typical of their design interpretations, is the kilim before the fringe. Very often, wool piled Chinese rugs older than 10 years old and starting in the late 70's, often have this apron before the fringe becomes tassels.

I'm guessing this rug is about 10 years old now, although I could be slightly older


I don't disagree with Krow, but new imports do have their place. Condition is very important for these lower priced goods on eBay, although there is something to say about a rug with no color run that's worn down the knot heads. Gives a real nice dimension to the rug, especially when it's even. Take a look at this one which is attached for example called even wear: PS> this rug is a $65,000 Antique Tabriz 10x14
RugPro attached the following image(s):
even wear.jpg
rug1.jpg
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KrowGyrl Offline
#6 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:03:22 AM(UTC)
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Take a look at this one which is attached >>>

Wow, that's so clean it looks like needle point. And my disclaimer is of course that I am not anything close to an expert, just an opinionated beginner spouting off about my own preferences and tastes and romantic notions about funky home design. I am hardly the "Pope of Pile" speaking ex cathedra on the value and place of anything! :)
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RugPro Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, May 19, 2008 9:33:57 PM(UTC)
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Hey Ghex, how much was this one being sold for?
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