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Rug value?
Ghex Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, April 6, 2008 6:21:35 PM(UTC)
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Hello,

I'm not sure whether this is the best forum to post this question, but I'll give it a try.

I'm just beginning to collect carpets. I have a couple of them, and currently looking for a new one for one part of the lounge. However, I visited this new dealer in town, and saw a nice runner for my front hallway. It's a Jaunty Co Inc Coronal Red 4x12 as shown here: http://www.jauntyinc.com...designs.asp?DesignID=65
It's not a "real" carpet in the sense that it is hand-tufted rather than hand-woven, but it is 100% wool. However - and I realize the purists may argue with this - I'm considering buying this as the hallway gets a fair amount of traffic, and I can't bear the thought of laying an oriental carpet there yet.

Now my biggest problem is what would be a fair price for this carpet? I've seen opinions ranging from valuing a hand-tufted carpet as low as a machine-made carpet, while others seem to hold them in higher regard. Any suggestions?

Thanks.
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 6, 2008 6:40:14 PM(UTC)
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Great question and welcome to the forum, you're in the right place!

Hand tufted carpets are a tricky thing, as the grading of quality is very difficult to do other than looking at detail photographs of the design, and feeling the quality of wool. For hand knotted carpets and even machine made rugs in some cases, there are knots per square inch as just one unit of measure, or for machine mades, points per square meter. I guess the most important thing for a hand tufted carpet, aside from being aware of some characteristics of them, is to really feel them. I always judge a hand tufted carpet by the quality of wool used, if the rug sheds a significant amount, then it's probably something to stay away from.

In terms of pricing, I've seen Indian tufted rugs advertised as low as $1 per square foot to as high as $25 per foot. I would say you should write off anything under the $7 per square foot pretty much junk, and anything over $15 to be too high a price for Internet sale. I have good reasons for this, if you would like I can explain. But again, to give a price estimate on a hand tufted carpet, it really has to be both seen and felt.

As for comparing a machine made and hand tufted carpet, I really would say the best thing to do is go with a wool machine made carpet, although I feel like I'm selling out by saying this. Many of these glues used in hand tufted carpets, as well as the synthetic fibers which comprise the pile of a machine made carpet, give off-gases as the fibers begin to break down which have been considered harmful. Also, these fibers never break in as well as wool, and the glues used in hand tufted carpets have often been complained of by many consumers.

I hope this helps, did I answer everything? How much is the rug by the way?
Ghex Offline
#3 Posted : Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:02:42 PM(UTC)
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Thanks RugPro,

The dealer claims the wool yarn to be 350g, the pile is about 12-15mm. The lowest price I could extract from them is $450, which I believe it is a bit high.

I'm trying to understand what would be a fair price, and whether i would be better off to consider an oriental carpet for the hallway as well...
cloudband Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, April 6, 2008 8:11:15 PM(UTC)
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Hello Ghex, and welcome to the Forum,

I pretty much agree with RugPro. The rug you're looking at does come in around that $10 per square foot range which is not unusual for a nice quality tufted rug. Although, price isn't the best determinant as to quality. Be sure to ask the seller how old the rug is:

One of the bigger problems with these tufted rugs are the lifespan. Because of the construction and glue used, typical hand tufted rugs are good for maybe a solid 15 years... It can sometimes be the case that a rug of this unusual size can sit in inventory unsold for 4 or 5 years as it's not often requested. If the rug has spent a third of it's useful life on the shelf, that's one third less years of service it will provide to you as the consumer.

On the other hand, an Oriental Rug would be a really solid investment. If you are willing to spend maybe $800, you should be able to find some really nice quality hand knotted carpets which could be far more resilient than a tufted rug. I know it sounds like a lot more, but it's a wiser investment in my opinion. Don't forget, if you don't like the rug, which I'm assuming is available over the internet not locally, shipment of a tufted rug is often more costly than a hand knotted, which could be fairly prohibitive should you want to return it. Make sure you know all shipping costs up front if this is the case. Conversely, if you have the advantage of seeing the rug in person, definitely test the wool to see if it sheds by rubbing the pile vigorously, you'll know immediately if a rug sheds too much.

Let me ask you this though, do you plan on changing your decor in the next 8 or so years after purchasing this carpet? Or do you tend to get tired of the same old? Spell out some of your reservations, whether it be price, durability, etc., then we can help you from there. If you have some specific designs you like or similar carpets, we can try to help provide you with keywords in your search.
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Ghex Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, April 6, 2008 8:57:18 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Cloudband,

It looks like an oriental may be indeed the way to go. As I mentioned before, I am just starting on oriental carpets, but I don't envisage changing the decor soon, unless I move house. The only reason I was interested in the runner is because such sizes are difficult to find. I understand though the concerns about the life of this carpet, and they definitely play a factor in my decision making. I generally tend to purchase items for the long term, and this one doesn't seem to fit with that.

If I decide to go for an oriental for the hallway, I'll probably be looking for something that can withstand the normal hallway traffic (not very heavy, but still traffic). Given that I have tiles on the hallway as opposed to wooden floors, I'm looking for something fairly thick (high pile). The style of the runner was ok - I'm mainly looking into red/yellow(gold) and probably black colors. I'm probably pretty vague at this stage, but any suggestions would be welcomed.

Thanks.

P.S. The dealer was local, so no need for shipping charges on the carpet. The carpet looks fairly new, and has a strong rubbery smell to it, which the dealer attributed to being locked up in a container for 6 mths - given that statement I'd say the carpet is at least a couple of years old. The wool doesn't seem to shed.
Tabriz Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, April 7, 2008 1:11:07 PM(UTC)
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hello, hello and welcome

Rubber smell may never come out. Its true maybe some of it is from being in bale, but the tufted rug almost always eventually have smell. Price is not horrible for tufted rug, but people are moving away from these, but the glues used are getting better so that is good. Hand knotted or machine is best way to go. Where are you located?
Ghex Offline
#7 Posted : Saturday, May 3, 2008 1:05:40 AM(UTC)
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Hi everybody,

Sorry for the long delay - just returned from an overseas trip earlier this week. I returned the hand tufted carpet to the dealer before going away. Based on advice from this forum, I decided to look for real carpets. I visited another dealer today, and I found a couple of very nice chobi carpets. One of them is a runner, about 7m (23ft) long, 80cm (2ft8) wide, 144kpsi, all wool. The other one is a small carpet, 5x6.5, 169kpsi, wool with silk (the dealer claims 35% silk and 65% wool). What should I expect to pay for these?

Thanks.
Ghex attached the following image(s):
IMG_6548.jpg
IMG_6549.jpg
IMG_6550.jpg
IMG_6553.jpg
IMG_6555.jpg
IMG_6556.jpg
IMG_6545.jpg
RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:56:30 AM(UTC)
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Hey Ghex,

Glad to hear you're going the route of Oriental Rugs, and left the tufted behind. Price to pay also depends on where you're located, dealer policies for returns, and other types of conditions. They're both great looking rugs, and certainly look really excellent in the intended areas. How much are they asking for each piece? What country are both rugs from?


Here is the appraisal for the black rug. This is probably close to the $1700 mark going by the knot count. The only thing I would be wary of is whether or not this is real silk. This is not a chobi carpet. Keep in mind the prices are for retail in consideration of the rug having a decent quality wool. If I had to make a guess with this carpet I would have said $1500. But the thing is the photographs are hard to take a look at.

Here's for the chobi rug. Should be closer to this $1450 going by knot count. The other thing is that this rug looks like it is just a regular indian rug. not a chobi, but perhaps an older rug that has been made to look like a newer chobi by treating with a tea wash. Either way, in the vicinity of $1400 would be retail value.
RugPro Offline
#9 Posted : Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:27:03 PM(UTC)
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How much are you paying for these rugs if you don't mind me asking?
Ghex Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, May 5, 2008 1:41:19 AM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
How much are you paying for these rugs if you don't mind me asking?


The dealer would like, after much negotiations, $3,400 for the "package". Now, these are Australian dollars (i'm from down under), so it would be about $3,200 USD for both of them. I've done the burning test for the silk, and seems real. Obviously, i don't have access to the substances for the chemical test, so i'll leave it at that.

The dealer mentioned that the black carpet is a Jaipur made in Kashmir/India, while the other one is an Agra made in India. Does this sound right?

Thanks.
RugPro Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, May 5, 2008 7:16:26 AM(UTC)
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Hey Ghex

As per the black rug, it certainly can be considered a Jaipur. A newer rug for sure, maybe imported within the last 2 years or so. Great looking rug. As you can see, the appraisal doesn't change much for the black rug (revised here to accommodate Jaipur India rug. Really, the same goes for the "agra" rug. They call these Chobi's, but the fact of the matter is, this looks to me as though it's a tea washed rug that may be fairly old. It's hard to tell without seeing the height of the pile, but again, with the style of the rug adjusted, this would be another appraisal, and incorporating the N.A. Style of agra with tea wash, this would be a second.

The final values are certainly in fair value range for $3200 for the two given the new information: $17-1800 for the runner, (given tea wash) $1800 for the black area rug. If it is real silk, this is a good thing. If you did the burn test, that should be sufficient. Basically when burned, the material should smell something like burned hair, as silk is protein based. Worst case scenario, if it smells like hair and looks like silk, it could be a chemically treated wool, but it doesn't appear as such. Even if it were art silk, I'm not entirely sure this would have a tremendous affect on value. For the package deal, your in the right vicinity, and I would say this certainly is a fair market value for these rugs as reflected in both the appraisal tool and my experience in retail. If you really wanted to push it a little more, I would ask for padding, although it's not always necessary, does help with protecting the rug, your floor and add cushion.


here is the actual breakdown as I've done from the appraisal tool:

Runner
(bear in mind this is given a tea wash has been given to the rug)

difference in price range = $1,535 to $2,728 difference of $1193

131-220 KPSI = 89 of which you have 13 Knots

Make your equation for the knots

13/89*.8*1193 = 139.40

You have 1 of the 2 colors listed so that is 1/2*.20

Make your equation for the colors

.5*.2*1193 = 119

Add the two totals together and to the price floor provided by the Estimator Tool. 1535+119+139= 1800

difference in price range = $1,535 to $2,728 difference of $1193

131-220 KPSI = 89 of which you have 13 Knots

Make your equation for the knots

13/89*.8*1193 = 139.40

You have 1 of the 2 colors listed so that is 1/2*.20

Make your equation for the colors

.5*.2*1193 = 119

Add the two totals together and to the price floor provided by the Estimator Tool. 1535+119+139= ~$1800

Black Rug

difference in price range = $1,252 and $2,226 = 974

131-220 KPSI = 89 of which you have 38 Knots

Make your equation for the knots

38/89*.8*974 = 333

You have 2 of the 2 colors listed so that is 1*.20

Make your equation for the colors

1*.2*974 = 195

Add the two totals together and to the price floor provided by the Estimator Tool. 1252+333+195= ~$1780



I guess after all is said and done, the appraisal tool is looking at something like 3300-3600 USD (if the runner is tea washed). So I think it's safe to say you have a pretty fair deal on the table.


I'm really happy to hear you moved away from the tufted rugs. They're not bad, it's just that they tend to be somewhat disposable and have other drawbacks. For more money, you're looking at exponentially better carpets I would say. Great finds. I hope this has helped you, be sure to let us know if you have additional questions and we're looking forward to hearing what your decision is!
Ghex Offline
#12 Posted : Monday, May 5, 2008 2:44:20 PM(UTC)
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Hi RugPro,

Thanks for the incredibly detailed response. The runner may have been treated to look this way - tea wash or some other method. The fringe got the same treatment, and any warp knots in the carpet seem to have the same consistent color. All I could find is the fringe coming from the edge wrap, which looks white compared with the rest of the fringe. Otherwise, I couldn't tell how old the carpet is. It doesn't look used - the pile is very much vertical, it seems to have a uniform height and consistent look throughout the surface of the carpet (no worn areas noticed). The pile height is around 0.3-0.4in. I've attached some additional photos.

One thing that may be of some concern is what looks like glue residue close to the edge wrap - as seen in one of the photos. It's present only sparingly, and only around the edge wrap. Is that a matter of significant concern?

Thanks.
Ghex attached the following image(s):
IMG_6105.jpg
IMG_6106.jpg
IMG_6107.jpg
IMG_6108.jpg
RugPro Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, May 5, 2008 3:36:45 PM(UTC)
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It sounds like you've gone over this rug with a fine tooth comb! Like a pro :)

I see the glue most predominant in 6107. It's not uncommon for glue to be used on the edging or even on the back of the rug. It seems like Indian carpets employ this more often than rugs of other origin. Check out the post on starched rugs if you haven't already - literally there are rugs out there where the entire reverse side is glazed with a thin glue. For this rug I really wouldn't worry, especially if it's just on the edge, that's a somewhat standard procedure. I guess in some sense it's better to see it than not? Sometimes in the rugs they just tuck loose ends back into the carpet, but more often than not it's secured with a knot or glue such as this piece you have. In a way, it's a little consoling to see that something has been done to secure them further than the sometimes seen tuck-away.

As for the condition of the rug - I completely agree: this rug does not appear to have any use whatsoever. There's no evident blooming of the pile, and the sheering looks clipped rather than worn. Also, the colors used are current and still sought after. As I mentioned before, it doesn't strike me at all like a Jaipur rug, but that's neither here nor there.

Now that I see the additional (and good quality) photos of the rug in better lighting, it's clear that it has been treated with some sort of tea/herbal wash. I believe you also mentioned that you can see some areas which have not been spotted with this dye. As you can see on the Tea Wash post, there certainly are areas behind/inside knots and such which tend to avoid this treatment as seen in the second photo down. Don't get misled by the golden wash for the first photo, that's a different application than this rug has. It's kinda tough to describe, but it seems as though you've identified how the fibers absorb, or fail to absorb the dyes. It's also not unusual for weavers to just miss a small section, or go over another twice making it unevenly dyed in the fringe area. As a side note and in general, the treatment to color the cotton fringe is different than that of the treatment applied to the wool pile. This may have some influence over why there could be discrepancies between the pile and fringe tint: Cotton does not always absorb the coloring that wool does, however wool does absorb the treatment which is applied to the cotton to some extent. That is to say, a wool rug could receive a tea wash, and the fringe could show little if any at all change to the patina. It simply reacts differently to the wash. Kinda makes you wonder why they don't use the same dye on the wool as they do on the cotton... seems like it would make things easier, but the weavers have this down pat. It may have something to do with colorfastness or something, I have no clue.
Ghex Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, May 5, 2008 11:07:18 PM(UTC)
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Thanks RugPro. Funny you mention the second sets of photos as being of better quality than the first. The first were taken with a digital SLR camera, and the second with an older point and shoot. The advantage of the second set is obviously light (natural, rather than artificial as in the first set), and a lens with macro capability. The first set have a very shallow depth of focus (area in focus) because of the high aperture of the camera. That's most obvious in the case of the first runner picture. However, I think photography belongs to another thread, if not another forum altogether.

Thanks once again for your advice - it's certainly been extremely helpful. I'll get the two carpets for now. I think more are on the way, as soon as my bank account recovers from this purchase.

I've got another question, but it's about another type of carpet, so I'll open another thread.

Thanks once again!
RugPro Offline
#15 Posted : Tuesday, May 6, 2008 3:47:25 AM(UTC)
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The focus on this second camera is much better. I can't get over how great some of these cameras can capture images. I have a Konica Minolta it takes such incredible photographs. These are some photographs I took within the last 2 weeks or so. It was a little disappointing because I had something like 180 images printed for $75, and good 1/4 of them came out hazy with lint from processing captured on the paper. The first prints were of spectacular quality, but I had to bring back the photos that were no good. Yesterday when picking them up, instead of being on high quality photo paper with white borders, they were re-printed from a desktop inkjet on junk paper! I don't think I'm ever going back there again. You're right though, I think it's time to find a good photo forum.

The images below have both been cropped a little, so the quality is somewhat decreased.
File Attachment(s):
PICT0197.JPG (2,137kb) downloaded 8 time(s).
PICT0203a.jpg (2,423kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
Ghex Offline
#16 Posted : Tuesday, May 13, 2008 2:19:03 AM(UTC)
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Hi RugPro,

You're right, some P&S cameras are pretty good. However, there are some amazing advantages to having a very shallow depth of field. I've attached two images to illustrate. The very shallow DOF makes the whole image stand on its own (as opposed to being just a crop of a snap-photo) in the first photo. In the case of the second image, the plane is actually against a very busy background. If it weren't for the shallow depth of field (DOF), it would be fairly difficult to achieve separation between the subject and background.

P.S. As this thread is pretty much closed, I hope this off topic post is acceptable.
Ghex attached the following image(s):
IMG_6383.jpg
IMG_4807.jpg
RugPro Offline
#17 Posted : Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:17:47 AM(UTC)
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sweet photographs and great points. Did you take both of them?
Ghex Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2008 2:35:08 AM(UTC)
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Nah, I only took the photos. The points - I made :)
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