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What do I have here, and what is the retail value ? ? ?
Kurt Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, November 6, 2010 3:24:04 PM(UTC)
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I just bought it in Sharjah, UAE

High quality, mixed Korkwool & silk, the foundation is silk, it is 7 x 10 feet, and it is signed in both ends.

I simply adore it, and any help is highly appreciated.


Thanks, Kurt

http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug1.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug2.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug3.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug4.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug5.jpg
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bukhara Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, November 6, 2010 3:47:26 PM(UTC)
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nice Tabriz!
RugPro Offline
#3 Posted : Saturday, November 6, 2010 11:17:55 PM(UTC)
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That rug is no joke! What was the price?
Kurt Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, November 7, 2010 7:54:55 AM(UTC)
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When I bought this rug, I knew close to nothing about Persian rugs, or should I say rugs at all, I went to the Souk Islam in Sharjah, UAE, wanting to buy a 7 x 10 rug for my dining room.

The first rug I saw when I went into the first rug store was this one, and though I went through app 30 high end rug stores and was shown hundreds of rugs, my mind couldn’t let go of this one.

There's a lot of silk in it.

His starting price was 30.000,- Dirhams (app US $ 8.170,-), but through a hard (2 days) negotiation I bought it at a very good price, I will of course be more then happy to tell you guys the price, but will appreciate if you can give me a qualified guess on the retail value without being affected by what I paid.

I would also appreciate if you can tell me a little about what it is, yes – I know that it is from Tabriz, but very little more. I have attached more pictures, if you will need additional ones to help me, then please let me know.
Is it a common, or a very rare and complicated design ?

Based on the pictures I have shown, how many Raj is it ?

As you can see on the pictures of the fringe, it is a little imperfect, does that have an impact to the value?
Should / can I have it repaired, it is only what you can on the picture, and is about 30 cm, the top picture is from below, the bottom picture from above, the pictures has been shot with macro setting and looks much worse then it actually is, one will hardly notice it when he sees the carpet, and I’m not affected by it at all, I simply adore this rug.

Thanks, Kurt

http://www.kurt-b.dk/9.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/10.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/14.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/16.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/17.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/18.jpg
fredgrower Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, November 7, 2010 3:44:20 PM(UTC)
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I think your rug is beautiful!! (Sorry, I don't have enough knowledge to help with the other questions).
Kurt Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, November 8, 2010 6:54:30 AM(UTC)
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Bukara, Rug Pro & Fredgrower, thatns you for your comments.

I paid 16.600 Dirhams, which at the time I bought it was app. US $ 4.400,-, for the rug.


/ Kurt
1 user thanked Kurt for this useful post.
Ben on 11/8/2010(UTC)
RugPro Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, November 8, 2010 8:26:06 PM(UTC)
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seems a decent price compared to what it would be here in the states. most overseas buys dont go all that well.
RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Monday, November 8, 2010 11:13:02 PM(UTC)
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what part of the rug is that number 17 - is it in the kelim of the rug? Does the rug have any repairs you can note?
Kurt Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, November 9, 2010 8:29:01 AM(UTC)
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There’s no kelim in the rug,(unless the pictured area is called kelim) .

It is not in the rug itself, it is in the short area in between the carpet and the fringe, where the signature and some motives are, see attached.

There are no repairs at all anywhere in the rug.


/ Kurt


http://www.kurt-b.dk/19.jpg
Little-Persia Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, November 9, 2010 11:29:57 AM(UTC)
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Kurt,

When did you buy it? You obviously know a bit about Persian rugs now or you wouldn't have included the Raj count picture (55) for a Tabriz rug.

Not sure about the US but this would retail at around £10,000 in the UK (GBP). In saying that I've never sold a rug at this price so with us anyway may go for less.

Here's a rug we have which is similar in that it is a 55 Raj, silk foundation with kork wool and silk details. Possibly more silk in this one but the design would (I would imagine) be more difficult for a weaver to implement well in yours. Also half the size:

http://www.little-persia.com/?action=view_rug&cnt=5&id=766

And here's one more your size but a step down (50 Raj and cotton foundation):

http://www.little-persia.com/?action=view_rug&cnt=1&id=1592


***** You got a good buy, particularly if you're not a dealer *****

Kurt Offline
#11 Posted : Tuesday, November 9, 2010 1:09:23 PM(UTC)
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I am not a dealer, just a simple guy that felt in love with the rug (and still is).

I bought it 2 weeks ago.

I have been all over the internet the last week, goggled all kind of word / sentences in trying to find more about my rug, and Tabriz rugs in general.

I have read that the number of knobs should be counted in 7 cm in order to find out how many Raj it is, so I guess that you agree with me that it is app 55, does it make a difference which way the knots are being counted width / length ?

Any comment as to the a little imperfect in between the carpet itself and the fringe, should I worry about it , have it repaired or just leave it as it is ?

You have some beautiful rugs for sale; I will be going through your website when my daughter has been put to sleep.

I bought this attached kelim as well http://www.kurt-b.dk/20.jpg, probably nothing special, but I like it, it’s 80 x 115 cm, and I paid $ 145,-.


Thanks, Kurt

Shereen Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, November 9, 2010 2:15:00 PM(UTC)
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Kurt, you obviously have an eye for beauty in rugs. Falling in love with a rug is the best way of getting to know about rugs. Your Tabriz is very beautiful, the field design is not common, but also not unique, although the combination of main border, colours, plus field design, and on this size rug, may be rare.

According to the "rug estimator" from the rug rag forum site, you're rug is worth around 8000 dollars, and something around this sum you'd pay in a good rug shop (I believe). But design and colour combination are something that is in some sense priceless: in a shop it doesn't add that much to its value, but from an aesthetic point of view, you'll be able for years to look at it and get pleasure from it, and discover new motives, elements, colour choices, etc. in it for a long time, just marvel at it, generally. (Well at least that's what I do with my rugs ...)

I wouldn't worry about the damage in the kelim bit of the Tabriz, value-wise. If you have the rug in a medium to high "traffic area", it may be worth having it repaired, and I'd go for professional top repair, given the (apparently, from the photos) perfect condition of the rest of the rug. I don't think it would be horrendously expensive, but some people here could tell you what might be an appropriate price. If this part of the rug is in a place where it is not disturbed, you can also just leave it.

Your kelim is also lovely. It may not be terribly valuable (but again, in a shop you'd pay that much, I believe), but for its kind, it is a very beautiful, and well-balanced design and colours, and your daughter should (at least at some point) be delighted with the rows of animals (goats?) in it.
Kurt Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, November 9, 2010 3:57:31 PM(UTC)
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Shereen,

Thanks for your input.

The damage is in an area where there’s basically no traffic at all, so as for now I will probably leave it, my only concern is, that if I one day want to have it washed, it might cause more damage due to the washing process. I have a very professional and trustable guy here in Copenhagen that most likely can repair it if I ask him to.

Yes – the kelim is lovely, and when I decided to buy a rug for my living room, I was actually looking for kelim in precisely those colors, but couldn’t find any in 7 x 10, and even if I had found one, I would probably have bought the Tabriz anyway. I just walked into the Souk, entered the first rug store, and was immediately blown away by its beauty, but I’m sure that you know the feeling. I will definitely get pleasure from it for years.

It is interesting to notice how much the colors change depending on the light, on the picture below from the shop where I bought it, it looked very different to my eyes.

2 more pictures attached for your viewing pleasure.

Nr. 21 http://www.kurt-b.dk/21.jpgis a kelim I bought in the same Souk about 4 month ago, you can only see half of it, but it is 300 x 80 cm, it was the one that started it all, and I wonder where it will end, I will be back in Sharjah in april 2011, and you can be darn sure that I will buy another rug.

Nr. 22 http://www.kurt-b.dk/22.jpgis a picture of an awesome rug I saw in the Souk, according to seller it contains quotes from the Holy Quran, and could only be woven by a holy man with a deep knowledge to Islam, whether he is right or not, the rug is a beauty.


Thanks, Kurt


jahannandsons Offline
#14 Posted : Tuesday, November 9, 2010 4:16:10 PM(UTC)
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From the photos, it looks as though you have a 60+ raj rug (you count the horizontal lines of knots in every 6.5cm to get that #). It is a "Gonbad" design, meaning it is meant to replicate the a dome of a building as you'd see it from the inside. It is a beautiful rug, and I think you got a good price. A repair may make the area look more conspicuous than it does, so I wouldn't touch it. I don't think the damage to the kelim (that small white area between the pile and the fringe where it is a flatweave is called the kelim) doesn't make the good deal that you got any less good.
Jahann and Sons Persian Rugs
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Shereen Offline
#15 Posted : Tuesday, November 9, 2010 5:43:52 PM(UTC)
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Jahann knows more about rugs than I, so if he suggests don't touch the damaged kilim area, plus you don't walk on it, then I'd definitely follow his advice. (I don't know about what washing would do to the damage, if done carefully, perhaps nothing, but perhaps you can follow up this question when washing is required.)

Looking at the photos of the two flatweaves, I wonder whether they are sumaks rather than kilims. If you turn yours round, and it is not identical on the other side, but has lots of longer threads visible and cannot be used on that side, it's probably a sumak - a different type of flatweave.

The pile rug with quotes from the Quran is truly amazing, but seems to me to be made for middle-eastern customers - not just because of its religious aspect, but also because it has a design that from a European perspective may be considered in danger of the kitsch factor ... . Cultural tastes can differ quite a bit. (For example here in the US I have often difficulties to explain to people what Europeans mean by kitsch.)
Kurt Offline
#16 Posted : Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:31:58 AM(UTC)
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Picture attached of the backside of one of my two flat weaves, are they Kilims or Sumaks ?

Jahannandsons.: Regarding the count of Raj I’m a little confused, I have read that one should count the knots in every 7 cm, when I do that I get at least 55 depending on where I count, if I count them over in every 6.5 cm, I get at least 51, and you mention that you believe that I have a 60 + Raj, would you mind checking the below picture and tell me what I have ?

It doesn’t make a big difference, as it will never be sold, but it would obviously be good to know what I have.


Thanks, Kurt






jahannandsons Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:10:44 AM(UTC)
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Your eyes are much better than mine. With my glasses, I agree with you. 50 raj is what it looks to be. Still a good deal.

Your other rug appears to be a Soumak/Sumak (pick your spelling). They aren't reversible, but they do have a bit more heft than a standard Kelim and lie on the floor a bit better, in my opinion.
Jahann and Sons Persian Rugs
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Little-Persia Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:30:47 AM(UTC)
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Shereen

I always think Coo-Coo Clocks are a good example of kitsch.


jahannandsons/kurt

Definitely 55 but many people round KPSI (mainly) up and similarly with raj so it would probably be described as 60 raj by many?

Kurt

Funny you should post the sirjan design soumak, someone on here was looking for that same design only a week ago.
Little-Persia Offline
#19 Posted : Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:47:41 AM(UTC)
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Kurt Offline
#20 Posted : Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:59:28 AM(UTC)
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I guess that tells a lot about the Rug estimator
Kurt Offline
#21 Posted : Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:02:01 AM(UTC)
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I have only succeed in finding 1 Tabriz like mine with 60 raj, where it was actually was shown with a picture, and it actually have 15 knots in 2 cm, precisely the same number as mine have on 2 cm, you can see it here http://www.carpetvista.d...z_60_Raj_Silk_warp.html#

This one is being sold as 55, and it seems like mine is at least the same http://www.oriental-carp...com/Rugs/Carpet/id/43008

I’m sure that there’s a difference in the amount of knots in those rugs, depending on where one count them, are they being sold as / acknowledged as, either 40, 50, 60 or 70, or does 45, 55, 65 count as well ?

But what is the right way to measure it, in the US you use inch, here in Europe we use cm, on the difference between 2.5 inch & 7 cm, there can easily be an additional 4-5 knots, what is the exact distance to measure ?

And just to be sure, when measured one should count the horizontal lines (the length of the rug) in order to get the correct result, or is the vertical (width) as good a reference ?

To ad to the confusion I just found this.:


Thanks a lot for clarifying on my Soumak/Sumaks, my nect rug will be one like these in 7 x 10, they are Iranian, right ?

Sorry for all those questions, I’m just getting so much into Persian rugs that I want to learn as much as possible, and I feel that this forum is the right place to get answers on my questions, and I hope you are enjoying it as much as I am.


Thanks, Kurt
jahannandsons wrote:
Your eyes are much better than mine. With my glasses, I agree with you. 50 raj is what it looks to be. Still a good deal.

Your other rug appears to be a Soumak/Sumak (pick your spelling). They aren't reversible, but they do have a bit more heft than a standard Kelim and lie on the floor a bit better, in my opinion.

Kurt Offline
#22 Posted : Wednesday, November 10, 2010 12:51:11 PM(UTC)
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Little-Persia wrote:
Shereen


Funny you should post the sirjan design soumak, someone on here was looking for that same design only a week ago.


The day before I went into the Souk where I bought my Tabriz, I saw this one in Dubai mall, I believe that it also is a Soumak and was very close in buying it at $ 2.500,-, it is 7 x 10 as well.

/ Kurt

Little-Persia Offline
#23 Posted : Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:16:16 AM(UTC)
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Raj should be counted horizontally. Most websites, if they list knot count, will not list raj anyway, it'll be KPSI so around 20x20 or 20x19 (I'd imagine) = 380-400 KPSI. Tabriz rugs should have around the same amount of knots vertically as horizontally anyway.



Kurt Offline
#24 Posted : Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:37:00 AM(UTC)
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Thanks a lot Ryan, that does indeed sound correct to me, as how can a rug contain more knots then there’s strings in the loom …… ! ! !

400 KPSI also sounds like a lot to me.


Thanks, Kurt

Little-Persia wrote:
Raj should be counted horizontally. Most websites, if they list knot count, will not list raj anyway, it'll be KPSI so around 20x20 or 20x19 (I'd imagine) = 380-400 KPSI. Tabriz rugs should have around the same amount of knots vertically as horizontally anyway.




deepakbhatia Offline
#25 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 1:38:05 PM(UTC)
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Kurt wrote:
I just bought it in Sharjah, UAE

High quality, mixed Korkwool & silk, the foundation is silk, it is 7 x 10 feet, and it is signed in both ends.

I simply adore it, and any help is highly appreciated.


Thanks, Kurt

http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug1.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug2.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug3.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug4.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug5.jpg



Do you mind sharing the name/address of the shop in Sharjah. Thanks


Kurt Offline
#26 Posted : Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:49:25 PM(UTC)
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Go to the Souk Islam, they also call it the blue Souk or the gold souk, there's at least 40 highend rug dealers in there.

Kurt


deepakbhatia wrote:
Kurt wrote:
I just bought it in Sharjah, UAE

High quality, mixed Korkwool & silk, the foundation is silk, it is 7 x 10 feet, and it is signed in both ends.

I simply adore it, and any help is highly appreciated.


Thanks, Kurt

http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug1.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug2.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug3.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug4.jpg
http://www.kurt-b.dk/rug5.jpg



Do you mind sharing the name/address of the shop in Sharjah. Thanks



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