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what have I got?
lisa weidner Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:05:51 AM(UTC)
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Please tell me if this is worth getting appraised as something more than a poly-machine rug.
Thank you.
File Attachment(s):
jan. 2008 and livingroom carpet 043.jpg (1,240kb) downloaded 15 time(s).
jan. 2008 and livingroom carpet 030.jpg (1,234kb) downloaded 16 time(s).
lisa weidner attached the following image(s):
jan. 2008 and livingroom carpet 039.jpg
jan. 2008 and livingroom carpet 039.jpg
jan. 2008 and livingroom carpet 044.jpg
jan. 2008 and livingroom carpet 045.jpg
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jan. 2008 and livingroom carpet 048.jpg
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:32:42 AM(UTC)
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Hello and welcome to the forum.

While it would be of help to see the rug as a whole, the rug you provided photographs to above does in fact appear to be a machine made carpet.

There are five main indicators I am using to understand this.

1. From what I see, there is also a post factory production binding tape applied on one end (as seen in the last attachment), which is also indicative of a machine made rug (or more often, a runner). You rarely ever see this applied to an Oriental Rug.

2. The pattern ends abruptly. This is not unusual to find in a machine made rug, as often runners are cut from a very long roll which may come from a factory in excess of 100', and then is finally cut down to a custom size for stair application. Mitering, or "finishing the ends" with a border is usually later implemented to make the rug appear more complete. This is done by using excess material, or linear footage of the rug as pieces that may later be patched to the ends of the rug to make the rug more presentable.

3. The orientation of the knots, and the precise fashion of creation also alludes to a machined construction.

4. The surging on the side of the rug (not the red tape, but the part affixed to the edge with the border), also alludes to machined edging.

5. The last indicator is a little tough to tell by the pictures as I cannot see the full scope of the rug. However, from experience, I can make an educated guess that the cut side with red binding tape is probably the width of the rug. Due to the nature of production (in the majority of machine made carpets), they typically are woven in a landscape format rather than a portrait format. This is a little difficult to explain, but what I am getting at here is it appears as though the technique of manufacturing also implies the rug is machine made, as the orientation of knots is opposite that of a hand knotted rug.

Overall I am pretty certain that this is a machine made carpet: especially considering any one of the above mentioned elements, not to mention all characteristics combined.

Monetarily (or in consideration of resale), I would say the rug at hand does not have a particularly high value, and an appraisal would not be necessary. However, if you would like further information, simply post a picture of the full rug (with description of condition - low pile, worn areas, stain, etc.), as well as the exact size, and I can probably give you an approximate value.

In terms of testing the fibers for wool or synthetic (be careful when you do this - if you don't feel comfortable ask for someone to help), you may attempt to pull a knot out from the reverse side of the carpet. If this is too difficult to do, as sometimes it may be, you may clip a single small sample from the pile of the rug in an inconspicuous area. Be sure that you take as little as possible, and from an area that has an abundance of that particular color (so as to not interfere with the design of the rug.)

Bring the fiber to an open area with a cup of water nearby. Hold it with some old metal tweezers you don't particularly care about, and burn the sample piece with a match or lighter. If the odor of the sample smells like burned hair, you either have silk or wool. If the odor smells otherwise, it's probably a synthetic carpet. If you need a good indicator of what burned hair smells like, pull a strand from your friend, dog, cat, significant other, and try testing that to compare.

For more information on how to tell if a rug is machine made or hand knotted, take a look at this post. If you have IE 6.0, you'll have to scroll way down before you see the content show. Pay particular attention to the edgine on machine made rugs shown towards the bottom.

cloudband Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:49:59 AM(UTC)
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Hey Lisa,

I agree with Pro above. It looks machine made to me as well - but it could be a wool Karastan, which would mean it should have some decent value. Do consider that a Certified Appraisal can cost a lot of money. Most rug people will let you know immediately if it's worth it or not after seeing it in person.

A couple questions... You mentioned the size was 12 feet x15 feet in e-mail. Do you have a picture handy of the whole rug? Also, condition is very important as Pro asked... are there stains, worn spots, etc.? This should help in ascertaining a value.
David Dilmaghani
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RugPro Offline
#4 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:14:53 AM(UTC)
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It does look a lot like Karastan's 700 series now that you say it. If you look closely at the fibers zoomed in, they mingle such as wool does. It looks like a 2 to 3 ply yarn, which also is a Karastan spin. Nice quality New Zealand wool - semi-worsted, no?

Even in 15x12, if it's cut down, I couldn't seen this bringing in more than $700-900 at best: All else perfect, nevermind blooming of the pile. Most people want a carpet that's completely finished. eBay it! I'm going to see if I can figure out what design it could be. Looks a little like a Sarouk design, although they've had their fair share of misnomers.
cloudband Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:20:36 AM(UTC)
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Good luck! If it's an older one, it's going to be real tough to find.
David Dilmaghani
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RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:32:06 AM(UTC)
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Take a look at this Karastan 785 (number according to this seller.) Halfway decent condition, although the fringe looks new, and the rug shows a little blooming.

Lisa, Does the one above look like your rug? I'm not particularly familiar with Karastan rugs. They're certainly good quality, nicely made pieces. The only thing is that people like to see them intact, and symmetrical. I've known people who have rugs like this (with the border missing), and what the end up doing is having the rug reduced and finished so you just see the field. The thing to consider with value is condition, originality, and especially, with an older rug like this, whether or not it's clean. For a 15x12, you're looking at $275-375 for washing and shampooing, never mind possible repairs prior to washing necessary to fasten the ends if anything is loose.

If you're looking to sell the rug, you'll rarely find someone willing to wash it themselves in the backyard to eliminate this expense. The best thing to do is get use out of the rug, try to sell it on craigslist or eBay. Shipping across the country can't be more than $175. It just depends on what route you want to take. I know this seems like a lot of information, but we don't know much about condition of the rest of the rug. To me, it looks like a Karastan 785 Sarouk. Take a look around, see if it looks like your rug. Remember, the small size that I posted above is going to have a different mapping than that of a large size rug. You may not recognize it immediately unless you see it in 18x12 (I'm assuming if it's now a 15x12 and cut down).

Are there pet stains, burn holes, worn areas? These will all affect the value.
cloudband Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:34:53 AM(UTC)
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Interesting. I don't know about it being the 785, but the primary, secondary and terciary border do look similar. This could be from scaling, or maybe just the slight changes of design over the years. Although something tells me this rug doesn't have AM Sarouk field.
David Dilmaghani
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RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:10:18 AM(UTC)
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Ok that's the cutest kid I've ever seen. He's doing a great job inspecting the rug.

NEW PHOTO HAS BEEN ATTACHED ON THE FIRST POST

This is a Karastan similar to the one posted above, it's just a different size pattern and different color because of the size of the rug. They fill in the field differently with more detail according to the size. A bigger rug, the more detail, the more options for design and flow of patterns and line.

Please do not reproduce this information, I will not be accountable for any verification of value for insurance purposes.

For a rug in this condition: In my opinion, this is a Karastan 700 series Sarouk design which originally started out as a 18x12, or 20x12. However, as you state and is seen in the pictures, is now reduced to 15x12. The reduction does go into the field of the rug, and several areas appear worn down very close to the foundation. There is also work needed on the binding, and significant reduction in size, I would say replacement value would be in the vicinity of $400-600.

Keep in mind, replacement value is higher than market value or retail value. As a private party seller, this would even be lower.

Again, the rug does look show wear, and I can see by the way the edging frays that this bit of cotton yarn is similar to how other Karastan's I've seen fray.

Keep in mind, a certified appraisal and assesment should always be done in person. The values I have provided above are indicitive of my online assement of this piece.

I wish you luck with this piece, I hope you have benefited from this.
cloudband Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:23:11 AM(UTC)
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Cute Baby!

Sure does look like a real old Karastan now that I see it. Maybe 35-50 years? I would say the replacement value is around the same.
David Dilmaghani
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netjim Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:40:16 AM(UTC)
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I agree that it apears to be a 700/785 but note that the largest size available now is (and has been for several years) 10 x 14.
RugPro Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:49:42 AM(UTC)
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NetJim, what would you say on value. You have a shop in FL, no?

I spoke to one of my collegues and he said there's really no replacement value. He's 50 years in the business.

Personally, to find the same rug in the same size and condition would require shipping, would need searching around. It obviously has some utility, but its more aesthetics now than utility. For insurance, I would say the 400-600 is pretty spot on. Retail doesn't really exist for a rug like this, unless you find it in an antique store or salvation army. Maybe a repair company needs a karastan patch for their rug or something - they would pay a higher price for such. Private party 200 tops.

Replacement value is not to replace the same rug new in the same quality. Replacement value is to replace the rug in it's present condition, quality, genre, etc. Unless something is unusually rare or exceptional about the piece, this is how things are.

Outstanding photographs and great camera, but the face of the rug is threadbare which is not good. It is wool though.
cloudband Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:06:34 AM(UTC)
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Unbelievable images. You'd better be a photographer cause those are some outstanding pictures. I can say almost certainly Karastan, that's the only thing that would hold the value in that range. Now that I can seen in image 48 how low the pile is worn I say it's closer to the $250 - $400 for replacement personally, but that's neither here nor there. Either way, it's under $600. Besides the value, it is a very pretty rug, and Karastan does make excellent quality items. The back of the rug still looks new. I would say enjoy it as is, and don't worry so much about the value. Like netjim said, you can't get Karastan larger than 10x14 (I didn't know that) anymore. This doesn't affect the value, but certainly goes to show you they don't make 'em like they used to.



Lisa, what do you plan on doing with this rug?
David Dilmaghani
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netjim Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:27:52 AM(UTC)
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Considering it is cut down, I think getting $200 - $250 would be generous. There is a place that specializes in repair of Karastan rugs, so much so that Karastan no longer does their own repairs but sends them to this company. (Karastan has been doing this for only a couple of years.)
A repair on this should be quite possible because the pattern is also now available in broadloom (as well as roll runner).
Lisa, a local Karastan rug dealer can help you with that but just because a dealer sells Karastan carpet (broadloom / wall-to-wall) does not mean they can help with rugs. It can be a separate dealership.
RugPro Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:34:41 PM(UTC)
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I don't disagree. But consider the fact that replacement value is the same as insurance value: which is higher than that of market value and retail value, this would mean 400-600 would be max to claim the rug's worth.

I think cloudband is right though, no matter what way you slice the pie, it's still going to come up lower than $600. I think we're all in the same neighborhood though. Doing an average it comes up like this

All below are Replacement Values

$500. My average
$0 My associate's
$325 Cloudband's average
$225 NetJim's average

TOTAL AVERAGE $262.50 with equal weight to all.

I guess to answer the original question, it is not worth getting appraised, whether it's hand knotted, machine made, Karastan, or other. The fact is, the pile is quite worn, and there's really not much of a market for this type of rug.

Some say $500, some say $0. While this sounds like a very large gap it's actually not. What is important to remember is that when you look at it from an economic standpoint of a "replacement value" you have to consider the $ per ft. For a rug like this, there's no way it's more than $3.00 per square foot. A consumer looking to purchase a rug such as this at market would do so for purposes of patching, cutting out good portions and using as entry mats, or use the reverse side of the rug.

WIKIPEDIA Defines replacement value as such.

"The term replacement cost or replacement value refers to the amount that an entity would have to pay, at the present time, to replace any one of its assets.

In the insurance industry, "replacement cost" is a method of computing the value of an item insured. Replacement cost is not market value, but is instead the cost to replace an item or structure at its pre-loss condition."


The fact is, there are many rugs in this condition, and like I said before, most of the replacement cost would involve finding a similar rug again, and pay $150 for shipping, and another $300 for cleaning. Enjoy it, use it and don't worry about the value or having it appraised.
lisa weidner Offline
#15 Posted : Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:42:26 PM(UTC)
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I'm terribly sorry my questions and remarks have not posted; I'm a forum novice. I hope this works!
Here, in the town in which I live, the EPA is doing a lead cleanup. It is commonly referred to as a "superfund site." Our home, including this rug, is contaminated with high levels of lead. the EPA will come in and remove all the lead including all rugs which happen to be hazardous. Ergo, the "replacement" value. I have clarified the meaning of this term with the people at the EPA. They have told me the following: The government (the tax payers) will pay the amount necessary to provide my living room floor with the same size and quality rug it currently dons-brand new!
I do have some questions as to the machine-made asssessment many of you hve made as I have looked all over the border from one end to the other on both sides for a recurring pattern but alas, there is none! I have even looked in the center of the border as it is unique to the rest of the border pattern and both sides have inconsistencies. The surging looks ,from the top, as if it goes right through the carpet . Please understand, I only wish to clear up all doubt so as to get a fair account of the rug's quality. Thank you so much for you time and expertise.
netjim Offline
#16 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2008 4:12:07 AM(UTC)
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Lisa,
As a Karastan dealer I can tell you that
a.) The largest size made by Karastan is now 11'6" x 16' but not in this pattern where the largest size available is 10' x 14'
b.) The Minimum Advertized Price (allowed) for 11'6" x 16' is $5399 (effective May 28)
I have no records of what larger sizes may have been but, when those larger sizes were available some years ago, the MAP pricing requirements didn't exist either.
c.) I can say that a customer of mine told me she paid "almost $2000" for an 8'8" x 12' (700/717 so same collection) a little over 20 years ago.

If you think it will help you, I will be glad to send something to you in an email from my store email address. That at least will give you something to print out from a dealer. If you would like that please send me a PM or email (buttons bottom left).

Best of Luck!
lisa weidner Offline
#17 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2008 4:42:01 AM(UTC)
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Well, Life just keeps getting better! i'm glad I got up this morning!
That would be great, netjim! I'm also taking it to a dealer for a second quote.
Thanks again. Lisa
RugPro Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:03:19 AM(UTC)
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I'm sorry to hear about your situation Lisa, it sounds like there is quite a different circumstance than known. I am glad that NetJim has posted his expertise. If the EPA has told you that replacement would entail the exact rug, and quality (leaving aside condition) for replacement, the numbers that he can provide will certainly be of assistance.

You mentioned you will be taking the rug to a local dealer for a second quote. Be sure to talk to them over the phone prior to lugging around the rug what it is that you need specifically. It's not necessarily a "replacement value" by definition (which is why I was confused). This terminology may throw off other experts as well. I don't know what the exact wording for this type of reimbursement. Just be sure you're clear on what your needs are and what the situation is prior to driving the rug around.

Keep us updated for sure.
lisa weidner Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:38:59 AM(UTC)
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I have gotten a quote from a Karastan dealer who looked at the sample piece I brought to him. (I cut a corner of the rug for easy transport.) he gave me a written quote of $5200.00. This was the price of the largest Karastan+ extra for the addtional size which he used some method to calculate. This, along with Jim's should suffice.
Thank you all!
P.S. For all you Catholics out there, Its a Holy Day of obligation-Ascenion Thursay- get to Masss!
RugPro Offline
#20 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2008 12:24:32 PM(UTC)
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Thank you for the reminder!

Very glad to hear that resolved well with bringing a piece to a local dealer. So they confirmed it was in fact a Karastan 785 with wool pile?
lisa weidner Offline
#21 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2008 2:36:40 PM(UTC)
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You are welcome! Yes, Karastan 700 series sarouk. As a matter of fact, another dealer to whom I sent the pictures verified that as well.
Kazak Offline
#22 Posted : Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:58:11 AM(UTC)
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This looks like an old Karastan 785, is worn, damaged and incomplete. A new Karastan might be worth thousands, but rug the value of this borderless beauty is minimal, if anything at all.

Perhaps a few hundred dollars is warranted to replace the old rug with another rug or bound carpet, but if you're planning to claim the value of a new rug as replacement for this one, you're off base and probably acting fraudulently.

Replacement value contemplates the cost of replacing what you actually have (a worn, borderless rug) with a comparable replacement, i.e. NOT a new rug in perfect condition.

I doubt any claims adjuster or inspector would accept a new Karastan (or the value of same) as a suitable replacement for this. Anyone making an insurance or other reimbursement claim from a federal agency is bound by law to act in good faith and honestly - not to mention the unfortunate fact that government/taxpayer money is paying for such expenses.

Let's get real with the true value involved here.
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