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Matt ebay vs say Rugman????
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#1 Posted : Tuesday, February 3, 2009 5:02:45 PM(UTC)
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Hi,

Can anyone assess the respective differences between the new, in perfect condition (he does have those) persians sold by say Matt in NC..... and, say, what I see on Rugman site? I see few differences within a given genre re respective ages, designs, KPSI.

Only difference I see is price. Is this right? What am I missing?
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, February 3, 2009 5:46:54 PM(UTC)
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I've heard of some rugs inexpensive rugs arrive from rugman with wear. From my understanding, as with many things, you get what you pay for.... you're right to question, because the goods are often the same quality of rugs these other eBay dealers have.

Some say rugman is hype cause the prices bounce up and down and you have to find coupons to get reasonable and consistent numbers. others say they're happy with the purchase. most all those goods on ebay and many on Rugman are exactly the same, just in different condition. after a while you'll get an eye for it, all those tabriz, mashad, "kashan" etc.... some of the colors are better in Rugman rugs, not subjected to heavy washing, etc.
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#3 Posted : Tuesday, February 3, 2009 8:12:08 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
I've heard of some rugs inexpensive rugs arrive from rugman with wear. From my understanding, as with many things, you get what you pay for.... you're right to question, because the goods are often the same quality of rugs these other eBay dealers have.

Some say rugman is hype cause the prices bounce up and down and you have to find coupons to get reasonable and consistent numbers. others say they're happy with the purchase. most all those goods on ebay and many on Rugman are exactly the same, just in different condition. after a while you'll get an eye for it, all those tabriz, mashad, "kashan" etc.... some of the colors are better in Rugman rugs, not subjected to heavy washing, etc.



I could not have recieved a more thorough response. Also confirmed some of my new suspicions resulting from my learning curve. But I do not think you always get what you pay for. Meaning, paying more does not insure you get better. And hello? Most dealers get LOTS more than they pay for, Pro! Whooooo just illustrated this in another thread, chapterr and verse?

Asl, re "better colors"...my take is he has stuff he knows will appeal to people who have a certain socio cultural mindset and often some very cliched, au courant accouterments. I hardly think his clientbase comprises rug pundits with original eyes. I find most of his stuff boring. I mean it. Not exactly haute couture.I see nothing with really passion, verve or joy. I also think all his stuff is overpriced.

But he is very purposeful, very smartly calculated in his marketing & the architecture of his site, very organized... and this too creeps me out. It is not the stuff of people who, in winter, live in goatshair huts and loom rugs. I luv the goatshair huts. I only just learned aobut them.

Thaniks so much for this. For everything.....

huruburu Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 2:04:42 PM(UTC)
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Jilly if you're still here, how did the conversation with Matt eventually work out?
Rugpro, you advise against buying from eBay vendor outside eBay, even when rug is not on auction but in vendor's store?
The thing is, rugs in the store may cost more than the auctioned rugs, which tend to be quite low-priced.
So, the risk is greater, without eBay protection (I haven't yet bought on eBay, just venturing in).
KAD Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 9:28:11 PM(UTC)
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New vs used is not so difficult. Just compare with other goods. New car vs same type 8 years old and 300000 miles on it. What is the difference? How is value difined? On new products you have a quite equal price on most producers. The final selling price depends on the amount of rugs you buy from the producer (getting a better price on larger amounts), your cost structure and calculation structure. Looking at the mentioned dealers and rug selling websites, you hardly find anything of quality, most is low(est) quality merchandise. How can you expect to find quality there? Most customers look at the product, like the color, and if the price is reduced from 10000 to 800, everything is fine. If you expect to get real quality rugs or original pieces, there are a lot of good sellers to find online or in reputated stores. But there you pay a lot more than on the mentioned sites - and get totally different quality.
Why?
Take a new rug of retail value with a fair calculation of 2000$. Have it used for 20 years. In this time the pile wears, cats and dogs and children had little "accidents" on it, often the fringes and sides are damaged, or the foundation is rotten. After the years, the difference between the cost of bringing the rug back into a "as new" condition is far higher than the price of a new rug, lets say 2500$ for repair. What is the value of the rug? -500$. Well, you can still walk on it, but the value is gone. What a great invention is ebay. Before ebay these wrecks where fore the junk, but now there are acutally poeple who buy this! Since most customers only buy from the optic, and have no idea about the defects a rug can have, a big market for these junk rugs has been created. I will use another way to explain it in a picture:
1. A new car is expensive since it has to cover the cost of the production and the trade.
2. A good relativly new car is still expensive but lower than new.
3. A 8 year old car with 300000 miles on it, with lots if defects and a new paintjob might look good at first, but it is junk.
4. A 50 year old car in perfect condition is a collectable with a price higher than the same model in new.
So the ebay market has developed into the junkyard for rugs - from the 4 categories above, most is quality listed as 3. or worse. Ebay specialized dealers buy all the junk rugs in Iran for little money to sell them on ebay, since it is still a profit to make. And rugman was very present on ebay a few years ago. I think the quality of his rugs is a little better than what is sold by other junkys, but still there is nothing to kick a rug collector out of his shoes. He has a good antique wash for his rugs, that makes them look a lot better than they are. If he has higher prices, it is ok since the quality is a little better than average.
You might find quite good rugs from private sellers or small sellers on ebay, but most large quantum sellers can only make profit with selling lowest quality because their customers expect lowest prices.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



huruburu Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 2:41:25 AM(UTC)
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This is so helpful and thorough, KAD. Thank you. I will use it to inform my policy. I have never bought on eBay and the rug I am interested in is new http://rover.ebay.com/ro...&mtid=824&kw=lg I can probably get it for less if I deal directly with the seller but I am nervous of that.
KAD Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:38:51 AM(UTC)
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The rug from the link looks ok. It is not a bad rug for sure, the difference in colors is probably wanted, since it looks a little like abrash (is not). Consideriung a typical ardebil knot count, it had taken ca. 4-5 month of labour + wool for the pile and cotton for the foundation to make this rug. So what is the problem about 900$? Sometimes I have a feeling, that poeple in Iran are supposed to work for free so the market gets cheap rugs. The seller has not such a big bite on this size for this price. Considerung what this rug costs in Iran, transportation to USA, his company costs and ebay costs, it is a very fair price for a new rug.
I do understand that it is difficult to get a feeling for a fair price since most rugs on ebay are used and of low quality. Therefore it is hard to compare this with new rugs. Just to give a figure: If you want to buy a good new rug in Iran, you will be facing ca. 35 $ per squarefoot to start with - and for real good rugs make it double.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



carpetview Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:07:53 AM(UTC)
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I agree with most things said by KAD too - but want simply to add:
1. I guess what matters is to buy from a rug dealer that has experience but also good taste in choosing and advising rugs.
2. On Ebay, there are the good, the bad and the ugly :) It is also biaised sometimes towards the type of rugs that people cannot sell elsewhere
3. Regarding the price - you can overpay with a dealer as well as on Ebay. I think it's just a matter of knowing what you buy and trust with the seller
4. My view (as a rug dealer and son of 45 years experience of rug dealer) is to "buy best quality and sell best quality". If you buy a good quality rug, you pay for the quality but you can feel assured that your rug will last many many years (even 80 years) and will keep its value. I remember selling 20 years ago good quality Turkish rugs like Yahyali rugs, they are worth much more these days!
5. I've seen that the US market is really overcrowded with Rugs from Iran - and you have lots of medium or bad quality rugs in the market (Ebay etc.). Make your research! Even if it looks like a good deal, something that you buy cheap on Ebay may be worth much less..

Don't know enough about Rugman - I guess we are not competing on same type of rugs - but what I can assure you (no ads!) is that at CarpetView, we value quality and try our best to give good value. Smart dealers would know to not rip off their client if they want to last in this business. We are in business since 40 years - and want to keep it that way.

Don't hesitate if you have other questions.
Hakan Guzelgoz
Sharing the Passion of RUGS MADE BY HUMANS not By machines.

Our Online Shop of Turkish Rugs & Oriental Rugs
My Blog: Rugs Made by People Not Machines

Little-Persia Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:25:51 AM(UTC)
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Have to agree with KAD's car analogy on hand knotted rugs. Some people think that Persian or Oriental rugs are an investment whereas in reality it's like cars and classic cars, some hold their value, others plummet. Buying a 50 year old classic car and the next year it's likely to be worth the same if not more, buy a new mass-produced Ford Mondeo and it's likely to drop in value as soon as it leaves the showroom and unlikely to ever become a 'classic'.

That's why we always recommend the average rug buyer to go for something they like and will want to keep, buying a rug as an investment isn't something a novice should really strive for.

From what I've seen on eBay the quality is normally either very low or really quite high but with exorbitant 'buy it now' prices when a lot of the companies sell. Private sales can often be good value for the buyer but not the seller unless they place a reserve, again quality and condition can be suspect. I suppose that's why RugRag is looking to verify sellers.
huruburu Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2010 3:26:38 AM(UTC)
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Clunkers or liabilities? http://rover.ebay.com/ro...&mtid=824&kw=lg http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574716523&toolid=10001&campid=5336111917&customid=Forum&icep_item=250612022193&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg

I get such a restful feeling from the Kashan.

But I am almost paralyzed now thinking of moths, trust, and many other factors involved in making these, somewhat emotional, purchases with strangers (and talking about it here, which is an enormous help, but still strange).

Seeing fredgrower's rug today, and the commitment to immediate washing/repairs/moth protection
makes rug buying seem more like adoption than acquisition. I am not in it for the investment, as I have little money and am constantly trying to reduce rather than increase my home insurance (!), but I want something I can live with that is genuine: if cheap, brash and cheerful, I want to know it as just that; if awkward but appealing, likewise; or beautiful and refined. I guess what I'm looking for is education. Thank you all for generously offering it here.

Are there any rug tours novices can go on?!


KAD Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:20:42 AM(UTC)
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Both would fit your requirements. The Kashan looks ok, some pictures make me think it might have some worn area, hard to tell because the pictures are a little dark and small. Age is not 1940: 1970 - 80 would be correct. Price is fair for this size if it is in good condition.
The Ardebil is rather common, it is not so fine, but it is ok. Price is a little high compared with the Kashan. Age same as Kashan. Request better pictures of both rugs (knots). The Kashan is likely to have typical kpsi, the Ardebil is a little low in kpsi. Better check with picture.

The two Isfahan rugs fredgrower posted lately are both great. It is a process of learning, watching, and some luck.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



Little-Persia Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 2:29:36 AM(UTC)
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The Kashan rug, if you press 'enlarge image' on the top picture and go to picture 7 looks to have low pile (how low or wide-spread is difficult to tell). The Kashan price looks good, guess it just depends if you're willing to live with the wear. The Ardabil's price isn't as good but it's not bad for a rug that size. Looks in pretty good shape, colours are a bit strange for my taste... both had make an offer price so you could probably drag them down on price further.
KAD Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 2:58:59 AM(UTC)
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Yes, picture 7 shows the worst part, but there are some more pics that I would say dont look so good, probably overall some wear.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...TeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



huruburu Offline
#14 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:04:07 AM(UTC)
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Thank you all very much. I am learning a lot here. Still have yet to make a purchase on eBay though. Fredgrower sets a good example! And Carpetview, when I get to the upstairs rooms, I'll come calling.
fredgrower Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58:15 AM(UTC)
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Don't forget, I've gotten both good and bad from eBay, there is a 'gambling' risk involved.
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