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help please!
rugfan! Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 6:27:08 PM(UTC)
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Could you all please help me with two rugs that were purchased by my Mom? I have seen the rugs and they are very nice. I read all of the articles online regarding man-made rugs verus handwoven. I want to make sure that theese are authentic and that she did not overpay too badly. Thanks so much for any help!!! http://rover.ebay.com/ro...9&mtid=824&kw=lg
andhttp://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574716523&toolid=10001&campid=5336111917&customid=Forum&icep_item=290387828648&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg
rugfan! attached the following image(s):
!BcSbYPw!Wk~$(KGrHqIOKiYEq4I,NImyBKz2EkV1Ww~~_14.jpg
!BcSbnKgBmk~$(KGrHqQOKjoEq4+Z!DEtBKz2FZ2seQ~~_35.jpg
!BcSbVvgB2k~$(KGrHqUOKjUEq5KtgYCEBKz2EcL)d!~~_14.jpg
ebayrug.jpg
ebayrug2.jpg
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fredgrower Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 7:37:54 PM(UTC)
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I bought from this seller (and returned) the prices are low, the rugs are hand knotted, probably not as old as listed or completely honest about where they come from...the seller is good about accepting returns, if your mom isn't happy.
Shereen Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 8:11:36 PM(UTC)
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The rug experts on this forum will be able to tell you whether the prices are much too high. This may in part depend on factors that are not readily visible on the photos.

As fredgrower says, the rugs are hand-knotted and likely to be more recent than 1930s, perhaps not even twenty years old. They are also likely to have been "chemically washed" to alter the colours in such a way that they appeal to a western clientele. This is very common.

Putting these things aside, your mom does have good taste. Both rugs have beautiful, playful, lively, designs with borders that complement the field very nicely.
If you buy (new) rugs from a rug shop, you may easily pay this much for rugs that size, though you may get a more accurate description, and there may be fewer / no imperfections. But then again, you may not find a rug with a design you really love.
rugfan! Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 2:31:05 AM(UTC)
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thanks! great input! i hate that they are hand knotted. any advice as to whether she overpaid? they arrived yesterday and can still be returned.

thanks!!
fredgrower Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:07:41 AM(UTC)
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Why would you hate that they are hand knotted?
KAD Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:56:54 AM(UTC)
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Both are rather 1970 than 1930, but the colors and designs are nice.
The runner is a Meshkin rug from north western Iran, description ok so far. Price is also ok if the pile is high and the rug has no major defects.
The other rug is more a Nahavand than a Lilian or Malayer, even the weave looks a lot alike on these types. This type of description is not 100% correct, but it is common to use better known names for the rugs so the buyer has some idea where it comes from. The design is really beautiful, I like this type of rug a lot. Your mom can lean back and enjoy - in my opinion it was a fair deal, exept for the wrong description of age - I would not mind. If both rugs where 1930 or older and in this condition, she would have payed at least triple.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
Ludwigstr. 21 97816 Lohr, Bavaria - Germany
https://www.the-rug-store.de
https://www.facebook.com...nTeppicheArtOrientalGmbh
https://www.instagram.com/djoharian_collection/



rugfan! Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 6:06:48 AM(UTC)
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Thanks --that makes me feel much better. I sincerely appreciate your help!
Shereen Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:30:24 AM(UTC)
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rugfan,

Handknotted means a weaver knotted every knot of the carpet (see on the back) by hand, one by one, row by row. Tens of thousands per rug. This is a good thing that makes the rugs more valuable.

The alternative is machine made, where machines are programmed with certain patterns. Those rugs look usually perfect in pattern (except those that have been programmed to imitated the human element (irregularities) of hand-knotted ones), and are lifeless and boring in design. Not pieces of art, but mass productions.
rugfan! Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:44:09 AM(UTC)
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THanks! - I am still learning, but I thought that there was a difference between hand woven and hand knotted. (these were advertised as hand woven). Could you please give me any insight? sorry, still learning!
Shereen Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:53:12 AM(UTC)
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Oh, I see. "Hand-woven" is the more generic term. There are various ways to produce rugs by hand, and they look very different (quite independent of design).

Piled rugs (like the one your mom bought) are hand-woven (i.e. made entirely by hand) AND hand-knotted. There are different types of knots used in different areas, but they all result in a pile, this soft velvety surface. (You should google "symmetric knot" and "asymmetric knot", then you get pictures.

Kilims can also be hand-woven or machine-made, but they are flat-weaves, that is you get a flat, even, less shiny appearance. You should look up kilims on ebay, then you see. With kilims, usually the back looks exactly like the front, and you can use them either way round. There are very beautiful hand-woven old Turkish and Navajo Kilims.

There are also Sumak rugs, also hand-woven, which are some kind of hand-embroidery, also flat-weaves, but the underside looks messy. Lots were produced in the Caucasus a century or so ago.

And there are needle-point rugs (usually European), made similar to needlepoint cushions, these can also be hand-woven (stich by stich) or machine made.

These are the most common ones, there are some more that one rarely finds.
rugfan! Offline
#11 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:58:20 AM(UTC)
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Thanks, Shereen! Your comments are extremely helpful! I really love Persian rugs, they are just like beautiful pieces of art. I would like to learn so much more! I was going to help my Mom pick some out for her house, but she was a bit impulsive :) Buying off Ebay always scares me a bit, so your comments have been very comforting.
traditionalrugrepair Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:33:58 AM(UTC)
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It should scare you to buy in ebay. I am in carpet business for more than 20 years I don't like to buy on ebay. I had couple of bad experience on ebay. I wish you good luck.
Shereen Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, April 13, 2010 1:09:13 PM(UTC)
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I've bought quite a few rugs on ebay, and I've had as many bad experiences as good ones. (Lots of learning experiences, too.) If there are any flaws on the rugs that are not in the description (wider on one end then the other, colour bleeding, holes, wrong age description, uneven shearing, etc.) your mom can in principle ask whether she can have a partial refund. But if it's just the wrong age description, I'd probably just mention it in (positive) feedback.

If you look at the photos of today's thread "Help with Identification - 2 Rugs" and compare them with the photos of the rugs your mom bought, you can nicely see the differences between machine made and hand-knotted rugs.

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