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Kermans and other rugs?
mosaic08 Offline
#1 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:40:03 AM(UTC)
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yes, great forum. I was looking to get some information on my rugs attached...one large green kerman, one ivory runner and one smaller red rug in which i have no idea about. any information including all the basics, along w/ value, would be much appreciated.

sizes: green rug-9x14, ivory runner-3x23, red rug-3x5

thanks!
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mosaic08 attached the following image(s):
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Tabriz Offline
#2 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:48:40 AM(UTC)
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Great rugs. from what I can see

The green kerman looks like it could be somewhere around 225 KPSI 2 ply yarn... probably woven in the 1950's, completely hand knotted wool pile, cotton foundation. Does it have a crown woven into it?

The ivory kerman runner - nice rug, probably a little newer, I would say 1960's, maybe even early 70's. Design is not as tight of that of the green rug. I'm guessing this rug maybe has 180 KPSI, 2 ply yarn?

the last rug looks like a carpet from the 80's, the edging looks turkish, and the weave is a symmetrical/ghiordes knot although it could even be from Russia or USSR. somewhere around 120 KPSI? wool pile on wool foundation I would imagine.

please elaborate on condition at your convinience. do you need information to sell or appraisal?
mosaic08 Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:00:22 AM(UTC)
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Thanks so much for post. i assumed they were in fact kerman (persian, correct?), but wasn't sure...i got them in a very quick and dirty estate sale in which i went for something else and saw these and thought the quality was there (especially for the price they were asking) so i purchased them and decided to ask questions later... of course now i'm completely into rugs and trying to learn more and more (i really seem to fancy the sarouk style rug) as for their value, what would be your appraisal and retail estimates...

also, crown? do you mean a figure of a crown literally woven into the rug? if so, where would i look?

again, thanks for your time and i look forward to your (and others) reply.
Tabriz Offline
#4 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:06:43 AM(UTC)
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sure thing.

Well, a crown would be woven into the top of the rug in the middle of the border. It literally would look like a upsidedown thimble with some elaborate jewel work with a wreath around it. Sometimes they're very small. The ivory one wouldn't have it. It's too coarse to be a crown Kerman.

Do the rugs have any stains, repairs, moth damage? are there any low areas with foundation showing, or rips and tears?

Tabriz Offline
#5 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:09:37 AM(UTC)
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This is a crown kerman, sometimes they vary a little. Take a look at the middle of the border surrounded by a small ivory field. it's actually upsidedown...

http://www.sarkiskish.co...etails.php?image=c-12674
RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:21:09 AM(UTC)
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Like Tabriz says, we'd need more info on condition, but the appraisal tool is always good fun. The Kirmans are in face Iranian rugs. Both appear as such. I disagree with Tabriz per the red rug, I think this is Turkish with lower quality wool. Value on this depends on condition.

T- it's not a Cyrus Crown Kirman - you would see the crown on the side mosaic photographed. That IS the top of the rug.
mosaic08 Offline
#7 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:22:14 AM(UTC)
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...i will look for a crown this evening, but i don't believe so. as for condition, the green rug seems pretty immaculate, no stains, repairs, moth damage and low pile. the ivory one has the same attributes, but does have a light discoloration/stain area at one end...not sure what, but might be clean-able... and the red rug seems good too.

again, thanks and i look forward to your thoughts...
RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 11:49:15 AM(UTC)
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These carpets often have a blooming pile if they've been used, which appears to be the case. Not necessarily a bad thing, it's just what happens. Go over the rug with a careful eye... excellent condition means the rug looks to have been cut straight from the loom. If the stain comes out, then you can revise the repairs/stains refringe part.


Excuse me being blunt, how much did you pay?

cloudband Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 12:06:12 PM(UTC)
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mosaic,

WELCOME TO OUR FORUM!!

RugPro & Tabriz, Where are the WELCOMES????? Jumping on it like Tigers you guys are!

mosaic, a lot of what these two are saying is true, but the other two shouldn't be appraising quite yet. Post photos and other info RugPro suggested when you're ready, I'd be more than happy to help you out too.

-David


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mosaic08 Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 12:15:38 PM(UTC)
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no, not a problem...i paid 200 for the green rug, 100 for the runner, and 25 for the small rug... i don't believe the people selling had any interest what so ever in them and so i got them for cheap... and we're using all of them so that's great...the runner is going to fit nicely on our stairs...

also, i can post more pictures this evening and get more details....this was all i had on my computer at work...

again, thanks for your replys...
cloudband Offline
#11 Posted : Friday, March 21, 2008 6:55:48 AM(UTC)
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WOW, that's a big time bargain!
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RugPro Offline
#12 Posted : Friday, March 21, 2008 11:30:59 AM(UTC)
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OK cloudband, i get it. Thanks for the edit, I'll wait on the appraisal until mosaic posts condition. That's a serious, serious, monster bargain. I'm shocked, what's the deal with the people you bought from? I know it's not your objective, but you could absolutely resell those for a lot A LOT more.
mosaic08 Offline
#13 Posted : Friday, April 11, 2008 10:29:01 AM(UTC)
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...hey, thanks to every that has responded... i have yet to get back w/ the condition...still going over...will post some new photos soon... but someone did mention about selling, and so where or how would i go about selling...i think we're going to keep them, but you never know... also, i have a lead on another piece...here are some photos...if anyone has some time, could you please tell me about them... wait, i think i need to start a new thread to attach the photos...i'll do so... oh, and the people were really just getting rid of them and didn't take the time to look into them... again, when i bought them, i had no idea what they were...they just seemed like good quality...
mosaic08 Offline
#14 Posted : Friday, April 11, 2008 4:51:50 PM(UTC)
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okay, i've uploaded more photos of the previous kermans people have commented on for further clarification of origin, quality, value, and i've also included two other rugs that i've recently aquired. one is another kerman runner, which is 3x9 and the other is something i don't know with a dimension of 4x6. i've attached the files above because i didn't know how to insert them into this portion of the post.

again, any thoughts would be great... as for the condtiion, i believe them all to be really good..no tears, stains, smells, holes, except for an area on the long runner, which will fit over a riser of our stair, so that doesn't detract from our use, but probably from value. if you need more or specific pictures i can take them....

thank and i very much look forward to hearing everyone's response.
RugPro Offline
#15 Posted : Friday, April 11, 2008 9:36:33 PM(UTC)
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THIS POST HAS BEEN UPDATED GIVEN NEWLY PROVIDED PHOTOGRAPHS 4.13.2008

Photographs are good, I can give you information regarding your rug for personal record, but please do not quote to sell these rugs or substantiate value for insurance purposes or other. Just for fun I ran these rugs through the appraisal tool and linked, but the values in writing are pretty much what the rugs would sell for Retail.

Rug-3x23: Newer Ivory Kerman Runner. Wool pile cotton foundation made in IRAN with KPSI around 140. This rug is early to late 1960's. something like this would be worth $1400 Retail in good condition without staining as shown. As is, I would say more along the lines of $800 to 900 Retail, significantly less for private party GIVEN THERE ARE NO ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS.

Image 15: 3x9 Kerman. Wool pile, cotton foundation made in IRAN with KPSI around 154 (counted 11x14). I would say this is would be found in retail for $700. Again, hand knotted, Iran, wool pile cotton foundation. Vintage 1960s.

IMG 0006: The Green Kerman... Wool pile cotton foundation made in IRAN. Not really a Persian rug per se, but Iranian. This is late 1950's early 60's vintage. If this rug is in good to very good condition with no moth spots, no stains, no problems, no low areas, no significant matting of the pile, I know people in the business who would have and would sell this rug in their stores for $5500 to $8400 depending on blooming of the pile (if no blooming, select "normal/original height" in "pile height" selection on appraisal tool. These rugs, as with most, the value will depreciate greatly when the rug shows the slightest signs of use, so take good care of it. Keep in mind, these prices are NY retail sellers final prices (going by a knot quality of 180 as counted), private party value would be significantly less. Condition is everything. If you think that one problem area does not affect value, it does...

Image 19: This last rug looks like a late 1980's mid 90's Pakistan Jufti carpet with traditional Persian Design. I would say this is something around $200 - 600 retail, probably on the lower end though. It is a tough one to really pinpoint without feeling the pile in person, or having a knot count.


Everything above is given that all else is fine with the rugs, no repairs or whatever other problems may exist. Good condition means there's slight blooming of the pile and some fringe wear, very good condition means there's slight wear to the fringe but no blooming of the pile. If there are additional problems to this which I have not seen, this would affect the value significantly. When I mention retail price, I'm talking about final price after whatever negotiating and sales discounts have been applied at a Reputable store that you know will be there in the long run: no possibility of getting scammed online or with deceptive tactics. Itinerant auctions or other no good ways of purchasing rugs from rug people, you could even pay more with much much higher risk.
KrowGyrl Offline
#16 Posted : Saturday, April 12, 2008 3:00:40 AM(UTC)
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Not really a Persian rug per se, but Iranian.>>>>>

Okay, can you explain this one a bit? Am I correct in guessing that a "Persian" rug as distinct from an Iranian rug has to do with quality and style and traditional standardized places of origin and style and that anything someone makes in Iran that's a rug, even if it's a crocheted or braided rug out of old rags is an "Iranian" rug?
RugPro Offline
#17 Posted : Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:27:10 AM(UTC)
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I guess it could be considered a Persian rug, but it's not really by definition. And I'm just kinda playing semantics here. Persia was considered Persia up until the mid-1930's where it then became announced as "Iran". Although when you mention it, it is almost like denying the extending history. The fact is though, exports go with the times of the country. It's more descriptive to call a rug pre-1930's "Persian" as there's also an implied age. Calling a carpet "Iranian" does too. It has not much to do with quality, material or any of that, it's really just what many people consider as accepted terminology given the changes in recent history. Although, there are people who still use the word "Persian" quite a bit. I do myself, but it's usually to mention the language itself or referring to the heritage of someone. These are animate things. For the carpets, they tend to roll more with the times
KrowGyrl Offline
#18 Posted : Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:06:30 AM(UTC)
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Although, there are people who still use the word "Persian" quite a bit. >>>

Yes, I am aware of the trajectory of the socio-political distinction between "Persian" and "Iranian." And what you say for the carpets makes sense. I liek semantics and I am all for accuracy. I have known people myself, as far as people go, who were fiercely "Persian" while their siblings of the same parents were "Iranian." We don't need to go there. But I notice very keenly the descriptions of rugs as "Persian type" which I of course take as a very different tings than "Persian." You can buy "Persian" type rugs at K*Mart for $49. And I guess that means that my drinking vessels are made out of a "diamond" type substance.
RugPro Offline
#19 Posted : Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:10:56 AM(UTC)
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It's a little silly when you think about it. Imagine if auto manufacturers used this type of marketing. It's a "Lexus style" hyundai. Or a "Rolls Royce" style chrystler 300. I dunno... I guess in some ways they do do this. I guess its different because the Persian style is considered the "Original" by many, although not all history of Oriental Rugs is limited to the Persians.

The thing is you can get not only a "Persian design" but an actual or "Iranian" rug at Ikea for cheap too... But the quality is horrendous. Anyway, the rugs that mosaic posted are nice examples. That mint green one is a great looking rug. In fact, I should probably mention that there was a post a while back where someone was passing a Karastan on eBay as a hand knotted heirloom. The Karastan that was the subject of this post had this exact color and design of this hand knotted green rug posted by Mosaic. Very nice looking rug, and even the machine made look alike still gets a few bucks, so you know that the design and coloring is somewhat timeless in a sense - always a good thing.
KrowGyrl Offline
#20 Posted : Saturday, April 12, 2008 3:38:01 PM(UTC)
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Amd here's the thing. I would rather have a badly trashed "good" "real" carpet than a brand new high end machine made carpet. As discussed before. Like in the antique busines. The important piece of good furniture you get with a broken leg, can be sold for more with the broken leg than if you repair it wrong, or paint it, or make any alterations. This is why around the antique scene, mid range to low, old trashed rugs, hand knotted rugs, are going for a fortune, relatively speaking. I have seen threadbare things on the floors of some of these shops that look like the dust is what's holding them together and they're asking a thousand bucks and all the foot traffic is walking over them all day long. U've seen this a thousand times. And this explains all the stories about throwing tea on carpets, letting animls walk on them. It's like blue jeans. Nobody wants to be seen wearing a brand bew crisp pair of jeans. The wear is the personality ro a good part of it.
RugPro Offline
#21 Posted : Saturday, April 12, 2008 7:08:15 PM(UTC)
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It's so true. But I wonder where it goes from there. From the desire to have these threadbare rugs to force antiquing processes... Then what? I used to be somewhat fond of these tea washed rugs myself, but when I realized how much of a pain in the you know what it is to recover lost dyes from spot cleaning.... I said forget it. Some of them are actually really colorfast, others are a lost cause
KrowGyrl Offline
#22 Posted : Sunday, April 13, 2008 1:40:46 AM(UTC)
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It's so true. But I wonder where it goes from there.<>>>>

Agreed, and that's where the education and experience comes in. It's the same in decorative antiques. I have a couple of friends who are very experiened and knowledgable and can spot anything from virtually a hundred yards. They have found things in Italy that anyone but the professional appraiser of antiquities would swear was just dug out of the ground and is 2,000 years old. Even they said these pieces were very, very good. Then they got to tour the "factory" where these artifacts were manufactured and see the genius techniques to which they were subjected to achieve these looks. I don't know if I posted the Rug Rabbit site here, but they have fragments on there, threadbare pieces, and I always wonder.
mosaic08 Offline
#23 Posted : Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:36:58 AM(UTC)
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hello, i've attached photos of each of the three kermans w/ a quarter on he backside to define the knot count...please take a look and let me know what you think.

also, i have two other questions and i'm not sure if they should be post here or in a different section of the site (probably), but what are the best practices for long-term storage and installing a stair runner? answers/advice would be most appreciated.

again, thanks and i look forward to everyones response.
RugPro Offline
#24 Posted : Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:39:50 AM(UTC)
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Hey Mosaic. I took a look at the rugs again, and modified some of the values as provided before in the previous post. None of the revisions are too different except for the green Kerman.

Overall, I'm pretty confident in the values given with the information as provided all else equal (size and other unseen problems which may exist). Keep in mind that a "Retail Value" is different (and lower) than "suggested retail price," and "insurance value." I suggest for the Kerman you may want to consider having a Certified Appraisal in writing. Most CA's would put insurance value of this somewhere above $7,500 on the Kerman I would imagine. The fee to have it on paper runs around $200. I think it would be in your best interest to have this done. Out of curiosity, where abouts are you located?

Regarding the storage and stair runners, which rugs are you looking to put into storage? Also for the stair runner, was it the 23' kerman you were considering to install?

cloudband Offline
#25 Posted : Sunday, April 13, 2008 10:34:34 AM(UTC)
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I would agree with Pro for the most part. The appraisal tool is a great indicator, but not the end all be all. Do consider having the Certified Appraisal, it is a nice example.
David Dilmaghani
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mosaic08 Offline
#26 Posted : Saturday, April 19, 2008 5:17:31 AM(UTC)
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sorry, i'm just responding now, i didn't realize there were more responses/updates...

yes, i think you're right...it would be in our interest to do so.

...the long term storage would be for the large kerman...we're having a new born in a couple of weeks, and so eventually they'll come a time when the rug will see some real/accidental use and so if it's worth something, it might be best to protect it. also, we're located in the chicago-land area... and yes, it's the 23' kerman we're looking into installing...

thanks!
mosaic08 Offline
#27 Posted : Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:05:54 PM(UTC)
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oh, i didn't see this question so i'm responding now...i'm in the chicago-land area... and also, can anyone recommend a reputable dealer to get an appraisal from? thanks.
RugPro Offline
#28 Posted : Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:24:11 AM(UTC)
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If you're in the area of Skokie IL. H.C. Nahigian and Sons do appraisals
mosaic08 Offline
#29 Posted : Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:31:24 AM(UTC)
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yes, i've seen them... there are quite a bit up in that area...skokie/evanston...i'm in elgin, which is a little bit a way, but a drive would be worth it... are they reputable?
RugPro Offline
#30 Posted : Saturday, April 26, 2008 6:16:47 AM(UTC)
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Very much reputable. They've been around for a long time and they're trustworthy
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