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Turkish?
KrowGyrl Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 5:54:39 AM(UTC)
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http://tinyurl.com/53rcop

Any thoughts on this?
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 7:54:53 AM(UTC)
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Nice looking rug, this is called a "Caesarea" rug which is woven in Turkey in the area which I believe is also called "Kayseri." I have seen many of these rugs, and they're of good to average quality. Overall, you will get good use out of this rug, however do know they tend to show wear fairly easily.

Rugs of this vintage were almost always sheered very thin, so there's not much before knot heads become exposed. A new rug would have at most about a 1/5 inch pile or less. If this rug were brand new on today's market, a fair retail value would probably be in the vicinity of $40 per square foot, although once rugs begin to show wear, this value changes drastically. The rug is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 40 years old, although could even be newer.

One very common aspect of these carpets is the incessant appearance of "white knots" which often surface through the pile of the rug as continuation of the cotton warp. Often what the weavers do is paint or dye these small threads post weaving, pre-exportation. However, after a rug like this is washed, the white knots reveal themselves once again as dyes tend to release.
KrowGyrl Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 8:20:41 AM(UTC)
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However, after a rug like this is washed, the white knots reveal themselves once again as dyes tend to release. >>>>>

I've seen this on a few things I have bought. Interesting.
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#4 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:18:54 AM(UTC)
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If you ever want to remove the white knots, there are two common ways to do it which give better results than painting them... but you have to assess the pile height and thickness of the knot to do so.
KrowGyrl Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:34:23 AM(UTC)
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If you ever want to remove the white knots, there are two common ways to do it which give better results than painting them... but you have to assess the pile height and thickness of the knot to do so. >>>

What does that involve?
RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:44:42 AM(UTC)
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Usually you can do one of two things: You can either clip them out at the base of the knot, or you can take a blunt nail and poke them through to the back of of the rug (quicker but not as good a solution). It's best to clip them out by carefully parting the pile, and snip the right above the knot. If the rug has a very thin pile from wear, I would not suggest trimming them or poking them through, as it may show an empty space where the knot was, although over time and use, this usually will settle over the bald spot.

If you have a specific rug you're thinking of doing this to, post an image and I'll try to give you the best alternative. For other tips a look at the main site's page on white knots, they have a couple of good photographs too.
KrowGyrl Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:35:36 AM(UTC)
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Interesting again. I just read the main site's descriptions. I dind't have any particular piece in mind, I was just curious what the standard protocol was. I'm with the opinion in the piece about the knots providing handmade character. The one photo, reinds me of a white hair in someone's beard.
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#8 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:43:44 PM(UTC)
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KrowGyrl wrote:
The one photo, reinds me of a white hair in someone's beard.


haha, very colorful beard. I agree, I really don't like to do much in terms of fixing these rugs, as it can be quite tedious work.

Although, I have had some very particular customers who have requested we fix such imperfections before they purchase the item:

One time I remember staying late after work with some clients to carefully go over an 8x10 they selected while they continued to browse for a 3x5. I think I must have treated some 200 or so of these white knots with one of the floor men. We were frantically switching between poking some through with an old blunt carpet needle and pliers, and trimming the others with very small scissors. It took about an hour for the two of us to clear all of them - maybe a dozen or so we used a carpet marker to cover up, but they were not really all that visible to begin with. SO DIZZY after I got up, but it was worth it to see them happy.
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#9 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 1:47:30 PM(UTC)
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SO DIZZY after I got up, but it was worth it to see them happy. >>>

Indeed, whatever it takes. Do you have primarily "educated" buyers, those who know what they're looking for? What about people who are intimidated by the whole thing but want a beautiful rug but don't know how to shop? And then what about those "browsers?" I have been on buying trips with a friend of mine, antiques and decorative wares, when there have been people in the stores openly saying they would never buyt "this stuff" but it was a cheap day's entertainment. Do you have walk-in traffic? Or by appointment only? I am fascinated by the whole business. I am very excited by the class I will be taking next month through NYU. It will be meeting in the teacher's store. Much more appealing than some classroom looking at Power Points.
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#10 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 3:42:02 PM(UTC)
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Most customers we deal with regularly know quality. Services include appointment, browsing, and in home approval.

In store browsing happens, there's nothing wrong with it. In fact in some cases it's encouraged so far as I'm concerned so long as the buyer makes this intention clear. The problem is when they lead you on to believe they have two living room rugs, one dining room rug and one for the master bedroom and they have interior designers "in the business" - things get a little misleading. Bottom line, is if someone wants to browse, I encourage them to do so, but what's important is for these people to not make their own assumptions but ask questions. If they think our prices are high, I want them to ask me "Why do your prices seem high?" This way, I can give them the honest and clear answers explaining what differentiates our company. What people don't understand is they think they have seen the exact same rug somewhere else, but literally this is impossible: Not because the saying "every rug is unique, even twins created by the same weaver," but literally no one else can purchase rugs from the people we get them from unless they are rejects which doesnt really happen now.

Everything is imported for this company, most of which is custom commissioned, which means designs qualities, colors are exclusive to the owner. If quality does not meet or exceed expectations after being woven, it stays in the exporting country for sale in local bazaars to tourists or other. This goes for rugs with lazy stitching, uneven or weighted abrash, white knots (quality control in Iran was difficult in the 70s, that's what the white knot rug was from earlier) poor design execution including uncentered medallions, or lop-sided rugs, poor and uneven tea washes, and unevenly sheered rugs and starched rugs just to name a few. As you can probably imagine, rejects don't happen often as there is an established trust with the best interest of the exporter to meet our quality standards and criteria.
KrowGyrl Offline
#11 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 3:53:59 PM(UTC)
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there is an established trust >>>

Indisipensible and a premium. So you commission rugs as per your own tastes and designs, or for specific customers? Or maybe both?

Also ... what's your take on the "War Rugs?" I remember years ago the first time I ever saw one was in the window of one of the big rug shops on Fifth Avenue. I did a double take and thought ... what the "blank" is this? I notice on ebay (again) they say they're "very rare" and yet at any moment there are probably a hundred of them on there. Are they producing a lot of them now? What's the story on when they first appeared? Are they always the smalls? That's all I've ever seen. Also, what do you mean by "starched" rugs?
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#12 Posted : Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:26:04 PM(UTC)
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For a very certain crowd. Designs are commissioned on a basis of what demand is anticipated to be. Shipments may take upwards of 1, sometimes 2 years to arrive from time of inception. Certainly custom orders are available. I'm not talking about modern/contemporary hand tufted designed rugs imported from Taiwan, but high quality hand knotted Oriental made to custom order to meet the needs of our clients.

On the other hand, a great deal of the imports are based on a forecast of what will be in demand given market indicators. In some ways it's significantly more difficult to remain on the forefront of Oriental Rug Production, as more often than not, it takes the average 8x10 size carpet a full 5-8 months to be completed, never mind the need to fill an entire order, and sea shipping time which averages 6 weeks.

As per war rugs, it's important to consider the roots of such pieces. From my understanding, the true "war rugs" as most would have it, are those of which were created between 1978, 79 to 1989 during the time of Russian occupation in Afghanistan, although I could be mistaken on the exact dates. However, what I am absolutely certain upon is that there do exist new rugs on the market which often times are advertised as such "authentic war rugs" however are not as collectible or sought after as they are in essence the perpetuation of the success of such war rugs which were produced during the mid to late eighties. Subsequently, while these items were in continued production through today, they are not nearly as valuable. Remember, I have seen such sellers as ECG advertise these items as "Authentic War Rugs." While in theory this may be technically true in regards to the same refugees weaving the rugs, they are nowhere near as valuable as authentic a "war rug" as the previously mentioned vintage pieces.

War rugs come in many sizes, but are predominantly isolated to the size 3'x5 and smaller, with exception to runners which are most often found 2'6" to 5'-8' feet or so. These are somewhat different than those of which are found in the smaller mat sizes. They tend to have a darker blue background highlighted with tints of gold, red, ivory, black and green too.

A starched rug: These are basically rugs which have undergone a corrective process of blocking (to make straight and true) which are then subjected to a starch treatment which makes the squaring of the rug more secure with the application of a thin viscosity glue to preserve the reshaped rug. A rug has most likely been starched because of irregularities in shape which may include curvature corrective measures or to square off a rug which is narrower at one end than the other.
KrowGyrl Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:54:20 AM(UTC)
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Yes, it was the ECG "war rugs" I was thinking of. So the new rugs, even if by the same refugees, are an industry, not a spontaneous craft. Gotcha.

As far as the starching, is this done att he time of creation or later? And what happens to the process if the rug needs to be washed? Is this a "low end" process done to hide something, or a normal and acceptable practice? And if the latter, is it identified to the buyer?
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#14 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 4:55:44 AM(UTC)
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Also (now that I have had my first cup of coffee and my brain is working) Who are the demographics of those commissioning carpets? Who sets the trends for style and taste? How tught are the "seasons" and are there certain styles that enjoy a perpetual reign? Any "dogs" that people commissioned that you were stuck with. If someone commissions something truly eccentric I assume you have to know the person or look for a payment up front. How common are commemorative commissions?

One of the things that is so fascinating to me, as I leanr more about the rug business, not only now but through time, is that it is very much like the European trade guilds, and I find that model absolutely wonderful. I know there are many other fine arts and wares that enjoy this throughout the Middle East and Central Asia, but rugs have capture my heart and imagination. I love the idea that one enters and art, is trained, matures intellectually within that art and all of the accompanying aesthetics, and then passes it on to the next generation. This lack in Western domestic fine arts is one of the reasons for the dissatisfaction and spiritual dryness of American culture, in my opinion. So I admire the family businesses so much, and the sense that there is something to learn and share, not just a greedy hand grabbing a wad of bills and hastily passing off a package. Bravo to you professionals in this day and age. It's more than an inspiration.
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#15 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 5:42:13 AM(UTC)
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Regarding the War Rugs, this is my understanding. There's a really good website that has an awesome detail on these rugs from sheering to weaving and final piece. When I have a chance I'll have to dig it up. But you're absolutely right, whereas it once was a spontaneous craft as many would call it, it certainly has evolved into what would now be considered a commercial industry on a small scale. While I'm not entirely certain on whether or not they are the same refugees or descendants, this is my understanding from having spoken with other people, although I could be mistaken. I think my coffee hasn't quite kicked in :)

You ask some really good questions. Regarding starched rugs, the country who seem to use this process more than others is India, although it's not necessarily confined to their exports. I guess you could say the Indian's are more aware, in a sense, to meeting the aesthetic demands of overseas markets to appease more regularity of carpet shape. Many of these village pieces you see from Iran, more often than not, they have no specific corrective measures to straighten a rug. The objective in general is to weave a straight and true rug right off the loom: While weavers don't necessarily use the process of bedding and starching a rug as a "crutch" to rely upon, it certainly helps accomplish the task of correcting inconsistencies which otherwise may not have been seen until after the rug is cut from the loom. So I guess the answer is that the process of starching a rug is done after cutting the piece from the loom, and 90% of the time (if needed at all), pre-exportation. It is an acceptable practice in the sense that it meets the needs of the Western markets to have straight rugs, however, from the perspective of a rug purist, starched rugs are certainly not considered the "cream of the crop," but they're not quite seen as a "seconds good" either. My position is that if a rug has not been corrected properly, it would be considered a "seconds good," although some rugs are starched so heavily, they certainly have lost one of the most important characteristics of a hand knotted rug. One of the most important things to assess when looking at the back of a carpet is that the design is as sharp on the front as it is on the back. Adding the starch has an adverse affect on this quality measure, as more often than not, you can not only see a heavily starched rug as having a slightly whiter back, but you can also feel that it is stiffer to the touch, rough and especially abrasive. In some select areas around the perimeter of the carpet, you may also notice small punched holes with a possibility of a little rust surrounding them. This is where the carpet had been stretched, and more often than not, this process is applied to runners with lengths exceeding 15' of today's imports, although can be found in almost any size rug. Coffee kicked in

Regarding washing of starched rugs, it completely depends upon how good of a job the weavers did with correcting the problem as well as the types of application used. You set the rug on a bed of needles, wet it, stretch it and then starch it, but depending also on the severity of the problem and the length of time it had been set for, you never know if post usage washing will render this procedure as being good or not. The more thorough and slower the process, the better. Often rugs which have mild shape problems can be fixed with a simple wetting and stretching repeated maybe one or two times, although often the case is that starching accelerates the process for mildly affected rugs foregoing the repeating process and simply jumping to a quicker final solution. Rugs with severe curve or irregularities, they find the need for starching as the only option.

There are other instances, where you may encounter a hard or stiffer back to a rug without the visual clue of starching. This can be attributed to torching methods which are mainly used to facilitate the previously mentioned "quality measure" of having the rug appear as sharp on the back as it is on the front. The torching method is used to literally burn away loose wool fibers from the knots woven, which often can muddle the knots on the back of the rug. I would show you some pictures, but this is best demonstrated in person as to the difference before and after. There are instances where a carpet has too hard of a torching application, which subsequently dries the wool giving it a coarser feel. One way to see this is in some of the newer imports with hard twisted wool for example. If you look very carefully, not only can you see the remnants of singed fibers, but you can also smell the burned "hair" if you get close enough to the rug - literally put your nose to it.

To answer your question, those who set the trends for style and taste are usually people who have been in the business for quite some time with extensive and very close ties to producers overseas. It's very difficult to establish ties to some of these weavers from a new importers perspective, as more often than not, weaving production is based upon how much purchasing power you have, and your leverage within the industry. A new importer with intentions to have one small shipment will literally have to accept whatever the weaver produces as standard designs, which often can be found as a more commercially available rug. In regards to designing it's different for every aspect of the business. For machine made carpets and hand tufted carpets as examples, given the value of the shipment is significantly low, and production time is significantly shorter, they can afford to make more advantageous design and color decisions. Those in the Oriental Rug business have other indicators on their side regarding the anticipated demands of customers.

One example would be carpets which were produced pre-WW2 tended to have darker colors with very sparse use of pastels and bright colors. This can also be attributed to the Great Depression where rugs afterwards were darker, bolder. However, before the depression we also see the importing of many Nichols rugs, which were extremely bright, and appealed to the Art Deco crowd: A reflection of the sentiment of the times within the roaring 20's. After WW2, importers realized that the tone was of relief, so around the 1950's, we began to see the transition of these topical pastels being integrated into the fields of carpets, becoming the more predominant overtone of the rug. The thing about importing Oriental Rugs is that there is quite a time lag in today's ever changing design themes. So more often than not, objective is to create something timeless or trendy, but also considering the high investment value of each shipment which is at stake. Of course can't be incredibly aggressive with coloring and designs. One of the safeties is to create something timeless, or to produce something which has a proven track record. Although, there are those who commission rugs on a more textural basis, where it's not only the design and the colors of the carpet which are on the line, but also the advantages of a hand knotted rug over a machine made can be explored with much greater tactic. An example of this would be Peshuar carpets. While tea-washed carpets have been extremely popular, in the early 90's, these rugs tended to have the antique look, but not the antique feel or texture as the original rug subjected to the tea wash was of the thickness of a standard rug. The essence of these antique carpets which are so highly sought after were then expounded upon. Combining the elements of a softer, more subtle design and color with also a thinner type of weave has proven to be a fruitful combination, as not only are they including the track record success of antique washed carpets, but also feature the delicate, finely and thinly sheered pile of an antique rug.

I appreciate your kind words, certainly the market has become li
KrowGyrl Offline
#16 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 6:21:47 AM(UTC)
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Nowadays, there is somewhat of a bastardization which has taken place to eliminate what people think are "mistakes" when in reality these elements being eliminated are the expression and deep understanding of line, contour and overall personality of the rug. >>>

My, what a wonderful essay. I think I'll be printing that out for a second read later. I am in open personal warfare against all such bastardizations as you describe, where ever they occur. And I am a person of modest and humble means. I know this is not just about purchasing power. I doubt Brittany Spears, for all her millions, reflects a sophistcated aesthetic in her home. An epidemic malaise to be sure. When I first started seeing these carpets back in the early '70s, I was dazzled. And what I was seeing was the tribal stuff, out of Afghanistan, that was popular with my generation of old hippes. And exactly what I fell in love with was the uniformly dark colors, the irregularities and the rugged quality. It was like meeting live people after seeing only manequins.

I had one woman come to my home to look at carpets. She looked at one that was particularly pretty and had a lovely subtle array of abrash. She had seen it on my web site and wanted to look at that piece. But when she saw the "irregularity" she almost started hyperventilating. "No, no! It has to be perfect!" So I gently rolled by my carpet and set it aside saying ... you're right. This is not the carpet for you. In fact, I probably don't have ANYTHING for you, as mine are all more rugged. I have my accentric side. If I had had a $750,000 carpet out of the Shah's palace I probably would have hidden it from her. But then what I have come to understand is that this fetish with perfection serves in the minds of many people today as a surrogate for order, stability and calm that they cannot find in the world elsewhere. This does not apply to highly sophisticated people with an inbred sense of quality and design balance. That's another breed and I know a few.

Then another topic. Three rugs I have recieved have a narrow leather strip, about 3" wide, tacked very loosely to the edges of the rug. I am assuming this is just to maintain shape during transport. But is it something else, or is there more to it?
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#17 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:20:43 AM(UTC)
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Great points. I have to write a quick reply on this one, and I see I have a lot of things in the previous post I need to word better.... The straps can be removed, although it's a good idea to take a look at the posting on these straps. You can remove them, but why they're there has to be carefully assessed. Often times if a rug has ripples, they attach these, but sometimes it's just to keep corners rigid so the rug has weight on the edges and doesn't get kicked up as easily.

When you mentioned if you had a 3/4 million dollar rug, I immediately thought of an article I read recently. It was on the life of a rug store owner (who unfortunately passed) who at one point a customer browsing her selection of fine antique rugs - I'll have to dig it up. I don't know exactly how it went, but it was something to the tune of this: The customer was shown several high end rugs, and asked the prices on all of them. When he was given the prices, he pointed to the most expensive rug which was shown to him (a $100,000 carpet) and said "I only want this to impress my friends with how much I spent, I want this one." The store owner was furious by his comment. Although she knew he was ready to purchase the rug, she kicked him out of the store! Or so the story goes...

I do agree with the tribal stuff, I like it very much these angular geometric designs. While I don't know what the inside of Brittany Spear's home looks like, I would agree the sophisticated aesthetic could very well be lacking. A wallet expanding faster than taste can lead to funny things. Although, I have heard the expression regarding the intricacies of pattern of carpets - "you can lose a Thanksgiving dinner in your Oriental Rug," She seems to have harder and more expensive habits than just a Turkey jones.... I guess it's easier to find illegal contraband on a cold marble floor. LOL

Have you been advertising your store, or are many people word of mouth? I'm curious - oh and feel free to tell these people who don't want abrash you know a rug guy that would show them that abrash can MAKE the rug... Some rugs with abrash I have seen would be considered ugly without it. A person who immediately dismissed abrash is misunderstanding the concept of a hand knotted rug.
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#18 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:05:10 AM(UTC)
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More good points. And I agree with the woman and throwing the guy out of her store. I'd feel soiled by that kind of attitude. I guess that's why I am struggling. I don't have a store yet. Just a booth and my blog and word of mouth. I'm still learning and like I mentioned before, I want to be more confident about what I know and what I understand before i really start pushing myself. Not only for the sake of honesty and accuracy, but in creating the romance and story of my ambience.

As for the straps, I think I will leave them on in the ones I am planning on selling. The potential buyers can make their own decision. I think it's kind of appealing. And I will admit something. When I first started getting the carpets and bought a couple of books, I did not understand the abrash. So then I went to the books and read about it and voila, my eye changed completely and I saw something very different than my first uninitiated eye. Since then, I have gotten rugs with all kinds of abrash, some cool, some not cool but intersting, and some absolutely exquisite.

And I do have a fun anecdote about some high end rugs. A friend of mine whom I have known for twenty years lost his parents within a year. Long story short, they had bought their large home in a rather grand part of San Francisco back in the '60s and it was fully furnished, with several very large oriental rugs. My friend is very knowledgable about the carpets, and is a very different kind of person than the remainder of his family. When the folks died and the house was divied up, his older sisters fought over the chatchkies and Lazy-boy and the big screen TV but had no interest in thsoe old carpets. They don't like my friend, and enjoyed immensely cheating him out of these treasures, along with a 4 year old SUV, and didn't mind letting him take the rugs for "sentimental value." I was with him when a gentleman from Christies handed him a check for $150,000 for these "boring old-fashoned rugs." We all get exactly what we deserve in life. :)
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#19 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:58:02 PM(UTC)
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Unbelievable on the $150k rugs. We had a customer come in some 6 months ago or so. She claimed that the apartment she was renting from in Danbury from an elderly man had an antique rug in the living room for quite some time. When she left, he mentioned to her he was going to renovate the apartment, and wanted to know if she wanted the rug which she had told him she had an affinity for. According to her, it was something like a 15x28 or thereabouts. Big apartment at any rate, but she accepted the offer to have the rug for free. She then rented in Manhattan, and realized she had no room for the carpet in the new place, and didn't think it was fair to put the rug into storage as she said "it should be enjoyed." It ended up that eventually she was advised by someone that the rug was probably fairly valuable. Apparently it was an Indian rug which was about 100+ years old, and sold at a Sotheby's auction for some $80,000 or so. There's no doubt in my mind that covered more than her expenses for renting the apartment, and the $2k rug she bought that day!
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#20 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:23:54 PM(UTC)
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I hope she shared this information and an offer to compensate him at least partially for the rug. Unless he was a Rockefeller and could afford such lavish gifts. An elderly man, anybody actually, I would have gone back and made some compensation. That's a big controversey around the moderate to low end antique scene I have been on the periphery of. Some people feel that if you buy something for 5 bucks from a junck dealer and then turn it around for some fabulous sum, you owe the struggling little guy something. I agree. Then of course there are others who don't.
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#21 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 2:21:46 PM(UTC)
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Completely agree. I didn't ask too much about this rug the customer had. But I do agree that if one has turned around and sold what has been given to them, it only seems appropriate to compensate the original seller. Especially if the act of giving is a response to the evident appreciation on behalf of the receiver of such an item. If this is then flipped for a buck, it should be partially passed on.
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#22 Posted : Wednesday, April 16, 2008 2:37:02 PM(UTC)
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If this is then flipped for a buck, it should be partially passed on. >>>

Yeah, maybe I'm weird, but when I read your story, I kind of cringed when I heard both that she had admired it for a long time, and then that she quickly sold it off. The old man probably was really proud and delighted to beqeath this treasure to her, and her actions sound opportunistic and insensitive. She couldn't have admired it too much.
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