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need info about this Antique Rug
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shahination Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2009 2:04:24 AM(UTC)
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Hi all,

I have this really interesting antique rug. It is 100% silk and its dimensions are: about 5.6 ft. x 4 ft. Interesting is that its knots are very tiny.

I need help to identify its style and its value.

Pic 1:



Pic 2:



Pic 3:



Pic 4:



Pic 5:



Pic 6:



Pic 7:



Pic 8:



Pic 9:



Thanks for any help :-)
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:26:22 AM(UTC)
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May be a Turkish Kayseri from around 1900. Some of the later first quarter rugs were made with mercerized cotton. Did you do a burn test?

It is a very interesting piece, but shows a great deal of wear. are there any dry areas, repairs, or is the silk powdering?
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shahination Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:41:23 AM(UTC)
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Yes, I did a burn test.

No, no dry areas, repairs or silk powdering, everything is in really good condition. It's very thin. Doesn't the wear mean that it is even more old and so makes it more valuable?
I'm also trying to find out how much worth this piece is!!
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RugPro Offline
#4 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2009 12:12:28 PM(UTC)
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I would say it is not much older than 1900. I say this for several reasons. The style and type of weave, and the woven elements of what appear to be dogs. I have seen many rugs that have them, but none of them predating last quarter 19th century. As for value, it is a very unique rug with unusual design, but it shows a good deal of wear. It's very good that the ends are intact with what seems to be original length fringe and original selvages too. If it is what I think it is, and I had to say an estimate ofor this piece it would be around $1500 give or take. I am not an expert in Turkish rugs (it may be other going by the sphinx), but I have seen many similar carpets go to auction. I would suggest you bring this to a local professional for full evaluation. I would be interested to see what Nathan has to say
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shahination Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2009 12:36:28 PM(UTC)
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hmmm...really? only worth around $1500, I thought it is much much more...Can Nathan give his opinion to this piece too here in this thread? I'm really interested to know about his opinion! I think it is a rare unusual unique rug , as you yourself say. There are wolves/dogs, lions, dragons, people, birds, nature/plants, etc... woven on it!!
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#6 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2009 2:15:36 PM(UTC)
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I am just wondering if the depiction of a Sphinx I see means something?
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RugPro Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:17:53 PM(UTC)
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How did you acquire the rug? Do you have more information you can share with us about it?
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Nathan K. Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, April 2, 2009 5:18:07 AM(UTC)
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I don't know why, but I'm unable to see the images (just small white boxes w/red X's). Without seeing it, it's sounding Egyptian? Lot's of silk rugs posted here... :)
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shahination Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48:46 AM(UTC)
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the rug is a inheritance from my dad's grandfather. But more information like what? it is very used that's why it is so flat/thin.
@Nathan: you can't see the images? should I post links to it or attach it her in the forum ? I really would like to know your opinion about this rug.
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RugPro Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:21:58 AM(UTC)
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Nathan, sometimes you have to refresh the page several times, or go out of the forum then back in again
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#11 Posted : Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:35:17 AM(UTC)
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Nathan K. wrote:
I don't know why, but I'm unable to see the images (just small white boxes w/red X's). Without seeing it, it's sounding Egyptian? Lot's of silk rugs posted here... :)


Incredible someone knows enough to hazard a guess without having seen the images. And in this case, it is justified. lol But as piqued my interest, there are many depictions of Sphinxes in all their classic incarnations. Tho I do not know enough to form any conclusions based on that.

I think condition needs to be stressed in determining value to the owner of this rug. Including re antique pieces. Had I not known better, I would have thought this was a woven rug and never had pile. Also makes me recall having learned right here that after 100 years silk erodes. So not sure if that it was employed as an actual rug and so enjoyed is responsible for the severe wear, the invevitable fate of silk or a combination of both.

But the family provenance alone, perhaps, is the most important & precious "currency" re this rug for the lucky new owner & guardian. For these reasons alone, it should be cherished and bring much delight.
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Nathan K. Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, April 2, 2009 2:09:03 PM(UTC)
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OK, I can see the images now. Unfortunately, this one's new to me. My gut says India. Some observations:
- the red(?) outlining appears to have bled?
- the red field color looks to be cochineal (possibly lac) dyed. This was big in India, but also in some Persian weaving areas like Kerman , Tabriz.
I've asked Barry O'Connell to pop by and look...
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BarryOC Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, April 2, 2009 3:14:39 PM(UTC)
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Nathan K. wrote:
OK, I can see the images now. Unfortunately, this one's new to me. My gut says India. Some observations:
- the red(?) outlining appears to have bled?
- the red field color looks to be cochineal (possibly lac) dyed. This was big in India, but also in some Persian weaving areas like Kerman , Tabriz.
I've asked Barry O'Connell to pop by and look...


If Nathan doesn't know for sure I am supposed to? ;-)
My thought is silk Heriz late 19th. The way the warps are knotted at the ends is curious and I will have to think about that. Three pages are missing on my Guide to Silk Heriz Rugs so I am short of examples. I will mention this to Thea Sand, she is really good on end finishes.
Barry
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Harry Myers Offline
#14 Posted : Thursday, April 2, 2009 4:33:49 PM(UTC)
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My first thought was a Kaysery also. Fringe is different though.
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Nathan K. Offline
#15 Posted : Friday, April 3, 2009 4:25:24 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Barry! I, too was looking at the Heriz (and other Persian) silk rugs on your Persian Carpet Guide. Most of the Heriz silks I've handled were pretty threadbare. Val Arbab showed me an old Heriz silk she owns, and she implied that it (and other "Heriz" silks) may have been woven in Tabriz? I did see an old Keyseri silk rug on your site that has similar coloration, but the vibe wasn't the same. I wonder if the panel format is a clue? While silk rugs are in their own class, I've only seen that "lattice" fringe in rugs from India and Turkey (but I'm relatively new to rugs). Hmmm... I'll check out the end finish section in Marla Mallet's book WOVEN STRUCTURES to see if there are any similar examples. I'll ask Thea to drop by as well.
BTW, silk Heriz rugs are VERY valuable...
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cloudband Offline
#16 Posted : Friday, April 3, 2009 10:05:22 AM(UTC)
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Hey Barry!

This is one neat rug, although I have to respectfully disagree about the silk Heriz attribution. Everything about this piece screams Turkey to me, even the longer fringe and colors. Kayseri is a very good guess.
David Dilmaghani
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shahination Offline
#17 Posted : Friday, April 3, 2009 12:58:53 PM(UTC)
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Wow! Thanks all for so many helps and suggestions.
So it might be either Turkish Kayseri or Silk Heriz from end 19th century... Any idea about the value of it? I mean if I wanted to sell it... what price would be ideal for this piece?
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Nathan K. Offline
#18 Posted : Friday, April 3, 2009 1:43:35 PM(UTC)
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I'll leave values to the dealers; prices are crazy these days. David?
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cloudband Offline
#19 Posted : Friday, April 3, 2009 1:50:19 PM(UTC)
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Please post photos of edge and quarter. Number 2 & Number 4

http://www.rugrag.com/po...nd-Oriental-Carpets.aspx
David Dilmaghani
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shahination Offline
#20 Posted : Saturday, April 4, 2009 3:54:11 PM(UTC)
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Thank you Cloudband! The rug is actually in Germany with my dad, and I told him to make the necessary pictures, Number2 & 4. As soon as he makes it I will post them here.
Luckily there in Germany the "50cent" coin is the same size as the "American quarter coin" LOL so I told my dad to make a "50cent photo" ^_^ Hope it is okay ???!!!
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shahination Offline
#21 Posted : Wednesday, April 8, 2009 1:28:45 PM(UTC)
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Here you go, so I finally got the needed pictures as requested by CLOUDBAND. Sorry for the delay. As I said because the rug is with my dad in Germany, I told him to make a photo with a 50 cent coin instead of quarter. BUT the good thing is, they are BOTH the SAME SIZE. so it should work ;-)

QUARTER / 50 CENT:



SELVAGES:





FRINGES:

short side:



long side:



long close up:



I hope these images will help in estimating its worth/price.

Thank you again.
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shahination Offline
#22 Posted : Thursday, April 9, 2009 10:27:13 AM(UTC)
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Where are you? Please don't forget this !!!
I'd appreciate it !!!
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RugPro Offline
#23 Posted : Thursday, April 9, 2009 12:42:18 PM(UTC)
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Great pics! almost certainly a Turkish rug, probably kayseri
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Harry Myers Offline
#24 Posted : Thursday, April 9, 2009 4:52:22 PM(UTC)
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I agree again Turkish Kayseri . Now that we could see the side chords.
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shahination Offline
#25 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 2:05:38 PM(UTC)
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thanks all.

But no clues about its worthiness? :-(
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RugPro Offline
#26 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 2:13:50 PM(UTC)
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it's a nice rug with an unusual design, but these rugs don't fetch the big money at auction. again, I would say $1500 for fair and reasonable retail, and I believe that is a vvery healthy estimate given the current conditions.

Take a look at a similar rug.
RugPro attached the following image(s):
kayseri.jpg
2009-04-10_191838.jpg
2009-04-10_191925.jpg
2009-04-10_191939.jpg
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shahination Offline
#27 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 2:35:57 PM(UTC)
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Thanks, but I think it is worth more.
The different creatures and people designed on the rug which is unusual and looks unique or rare tell a special story about the time it was made and/or about some cultural believes or traditions etc at that time. I don't exactly know, but it has to be something special hence the different animals and people...
:-|
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RugPro Offline
#28 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 2:50:38 PM(UTC)
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"I think it is worth more"

Lol. I'm not going to tell you the rug is worth $10k when it's not.

maybe up to 2000 somewhere in pricey NY. Maybe even someone will want to sell for $5,000 because they don't want to part with it. Can't blame them, but whether the price is "fair" or reasonable, and whether they even get that price or not is another story.

I just told you what I know, and that's the rug market - based off sold prices and experience. If you can find someone to tell you it's worth more, bring it to the forum for sure. I said Kayseri right off the bat, I've seen these in dealer inventories, auctions, etc. Values and Prices pretty much consistent through the board.

As beautiful and unique as the rug is, there's a market price too. It's got wear, it has inconsistent dyes, I don't think it's older than sometime first quarter 20th century. No offense, these rugs in general are not priceless

Cool to see on the forum. If you find someone that tells you otherwise, be sure to let me know. Otherwise, good luck.
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RugPro Offline
#29 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 2:54:12 PM(UTC)
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P.S. Maybe this will help out too
RugPro attached the following image(s):
KAYSERI PICTORIAL.jpg
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shahination Offline
#30 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2009 5:57:35 PM(UTC)
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Thanks a lot RugPro. I appreciate your knowledge and experience.
You are truly a Rug Pro ;-)

Thanks for the examples. They are worth it to get experience on the pricing :-)
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