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Rugs 101 - making progress
instarcarpet Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:29:38 PM(UTC)
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Hello All

I'm trying to learn to learn the intricacies of appreciating oriental rugs. To that end, I bought a couple of rugs at a charity shop to use for study/experiments. I've uploaded photos of the smaller of the two. I'm going to go out on a limb and give my best guess as to what it is, it's condition, and value. If anyone wants to play along, please feel free to show me the error of my ways, and point me in the right direction.

I believe the rug is a Kilim. It's approx. 3' x 5' giving it an area of 15 sq. ft. The KPSI is 168 (12 x 14). There is some end loss that will need attention (overcasting). The rug is out of square and would benefit from being blocked. Over all the rug is in fair condition with one small area of significant loss. I don't note any staining. As to value, a rug of this size & condition in my area (Houston) would run about $200. Just guessin' there.

Thanks for your attention - now back to reading :-)

Rt
instarcarpet attached the following image(s):
View-Wear.jpg
View-Side.jpg
View-Full.jpg
View-Back.jpg
Count-horiz.jpg
Count-vert.jpg
overcast.jpg
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#2 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:59:18 PM(UTC)
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Wow!!! 'Houston....we have a QUICK STUDY!!!" Like a GENIUS! I think you may be right on all, pun intended, COUNTS--..tho only listen to RugPro. You also already count better than I do! You even use lines and not dots!!!!!

I am on a plane to this charity shop....MEET ME AT THE AIRPORT.

Another fab rug. Has some pile wear and low areas, to be sure....but what interests me most is it, like another I have seen here, has blue wefts.

I think it has good age, great design and might be worth the cost or restoring the ends beyond securing them.

I think you have a rug GIFT. Also related gifts.

Pls send me those in an attachment.

lol

PS....and look at the SHEEN ON THE KNOTS!!! THAT is MOJO wool. OK that is sumthin I made up.....but I think it is very fine wool!!

Most of all, I Luv U are having FUN!!!
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#3 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:08:38 PM(UTC)
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Good link:
http://www.answers.com/topic/kilim
_______________________________________

http://www.answers.com/topic/kili
Wut? Romanian rugs are all made with light blue wefts? I am positive, so are others.
_______________________________________
Here is new Kilim from Turkey on ebay. It has BLUE WEFTS.http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574716523&toolid=10001&campid=5336111917&customid=Forum&icep_item=380105570382&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg|
netjim Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:27:20 PM(UTC)
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A kilim is a flat weave - as in no fuzzy side up :)
I have a small rug with some similarities in design that was originally purchased in a market in Anadol (Turkey).
There are several elements in the design of your rug that remind me of some Turkish village rugs I have seen.
The geometric patterns are typical of tribal rugs. The looms that they carried were/are not capable of some of the detail needed to produce more curved lines.

<added>
My rug is just a little smaller (2'7" x 4'3") and may have a little more pile. I have been offered $400 for it but

it's mine
it's mine
Applause
Guest
#5 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:12:40 PM(UTC)
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I luv this:

it's mine
it's mine
Applause

Yep....blue wefts from Turkey.
netjim Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:31:27 PM(UTC)
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I have one with blue wefts that has been identified as a Khorasan .

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#7 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2009 4:32:57 PM(UTC)
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netjim wrote:
I have one with blue wefts that has been identified as a Khorasan .



Blue wefts ROCK. Dancing
instarcarpet Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:53:12 PM(UTC)
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Jilly and NetJim - thanks for the input. I'm glad to know I'm moving in the right direction! Sadly, I didn't notice the blue wefts - so much to learn - but will definitely followup. The bad / good thing about buying anything from a charity shop is you can't get any information about its past.

I was a little unsure about the Kilim designation because most sites I read indicated that a Kilim can be used either side up. This one has a front and back. You have to look closely, but there is a difference. Luckily I found another site that mentioned that the reversible aspect wasn't necessarily always true.

Jilly - The charity shops I haunt - there are two - are located on the edge of the wealthiest neighborhood in Houston, probably in Texas. When the families remodel or redecorate a lot of times stuff gets donated to the shops. I generally look for paintings and art deco lamps, but now I have to add carpets to the list :-)

Thanks again. I bought another carpet that I'm researching now. It's a lot larger and much more elegant - in my humble opinion. I hope to have photos up soon.

Rt
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#9 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2009 1:29:31 AM(UTC)
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Ok first, do not diss the blue wefts. They may bear important info about the origin of the rug. To those far more knowledgable than I will ever be in this.....every minute part of a rug means something or can. Along with the overall essence which can not be assessed on a bar graph or academically. I call it the X factor. And discerning this can not be taught. It is visceral. So not to diss yr take that the new puppy is elegant. In this, yr opinion is not humble. You clearly have a vital and original eye. Get that and keep it YOURS.

Learning nuts and the bolts esp when shopping for a rug comprising serious capital outllay for a person--and that is subjective, is crucial; I outta know, boy! What is it? What is its value re what should I pay for it without being totally exploited?? How does its value work back to its inherent goodies? Is it durable? Is it...for those interested in such, I am not...an investment and collectible?

I have read TONS of feedback on ebay from buyers of rugs. This WAS MESMERIZING. Most of it from humans who have bought rugs from low end vendors, OFTEN for well under $100. WHAT LEAPT OUT AND NOURISHED ME was the level of distilled, unalloyed happiness these rugs brought their recipients!! Many precious lessons right there. Snobs---people who are stuck, would condem & mock them. I luv them! They are coming from a very pure, innocent in the best sense, core. Remember, "sophisticated," from the Greek, means LOSS OF INNOCENCE. THE CAPACITY to respond to something elementally, is something PRECIOUS. It also varies form individual to individual in its specifics.

My eye now... thanks to here and my rabid pro activity on my own....is more educated in rugs than only weeks ago. But I became aware at some point...that I could not bear to cross a line where my Jillyness might be sacrificed to greater sopistication. And so, it is still MINE.
To be true to thine own self....one must reclaim and cultivate that unique self. It is never from the outside-IN.

So stop the obsequious drivel e yr HUMBLE THIS OR THAT. Nobody need be a curator or a pundit to GET your dining suite! Nobody need know the circa, the genre, or if it is prime example within it. I was raised by antiquarians, they apparently impacted me without my realizing it, so I am interested in the nuts and bolts ...but get that the core essence is the bottom line, you have an eye that is yours… and never let that become compromised. Just make sure this wonderful learning augments and does not narrow.

When Elvis was 13, he dressed like ELVIS. He violated socio cultural Southern shoulds & oughts by sneaking into (then) Negro nite clubs WHICH WERE OFF LIMITS....because within him lurked THE SINGULAR ESSENCE OF THE MUSIC, THE EROS AND THE lifeforce. ELVIS... who eventually impacted the world, early on, was mocked and shunned by replicants who were slaves to what was then a la mode and considered normal.

I have little affinity verging on zero tolerance for threadbare rugs. but in many circles They have BIG cache.. See what goes for obscene money at auction. A rug with singular provenance, significance historically....is sometimes in shreds. Even Pro here, said early on, he too was drawn to the ostensible charm of the antique & often threadbare...but he metamorphosed. I believe it is often an artificially gestated affinity.... but even more, it abrogates FUNCTION--RUGS MADE TO SIT ON the FLOOR and be walked on are first and foremost about FUNCTION The rest is rich & complex and important, compelling and infinite in its potential.... but ALSO icing on the cake. PILE MATTERS. If only to me.

Then there is the ubiquitous, insidious maniupulation of the eye of the beholder by commerce and symbolism. The "look" of someone's idea of old money...and what that comprises. Lemmings abound in our species, and they are often unwitting. People trying to define themselves form the outside in while being inadvertent hostages. It marks the fashion world to be sure: Marc Jacobs et.al. re shabby chic...or heroin chic We see ink on so many humans; INK...has reality shows!....tho it was not long ago, tattoos were associated with underclasses & felons. A la mode is a trap. Along with someone who loves a rug because it costs 40K and they could buy it.... and that represents something. Look at me, I am wearing a Patek timepiece and I sleep on Portault sheets each within a narrow range of some shade of white! Classy versus vulgar too often products of conditioning and too rarely the manifestation of someone's real essence. Which is whyy all that morphs over time and so rapidly. Coco Chanel said, "fashion is for those who do not have style."

There are pundits in every arena with experience, impressive credentials who get all the academic elements, but many will never have the sometimes unfathomable via conventional means chops to get the truth-essence of this or that.... with an original eye. I think youhave an original eye.

Einstein intuited the perfect integration of the Universe and in detail. He EXPERIENCED IT. The math, the science, the physics came later. He, Albert... said the higher form of intelligence is not cognitive, it is intuitive. I have come to this in my own journey organically, not theoretically, Another illustration: many Chinese physicians can diagnose disease accurately without one, high end, technological device. M

I am in no way impugning an educated eye, trust me. I am just calling upon people to explore the components of "educated" and to beware that they can sometimes truncate. You are commencing a great and heady adventure....and in very original ways. I enjoy this very much. But please stay 14...and filled with wonder and trust & celebrate your eye.. Is all ahm sayin.

Now, the IMPORTANT STUFF.....are Sara Palin's blood money threads from Neiman Marcus in either of those shops? If so, U must burn them. lol
RugPro Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2009 10:01:28 AM(UTC)
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Instarcarpet,

Fun piece! I think netjim's insight on Turkish origin is well founded. however, whether turkish, persian or other, the main thing is condition. The rug does show a lot of wear and some loss at the ends. I wouldn't put too much into this rug, value is really aesthetic rather than the element of being a hand knotted rug. As long as it brings enjoyment that's the bottom line. :)
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