Value is difficult to say because with older pieces it becomes very subjective. I know one thing though.... You must have contacted the seller because the "best offer" is gone... Lol, in my opinion, it's a very impressive piece, but I would want to see more photographs

Estimating the worth of an older piece is very subjective. It could be justifiable that the price is that high for this rug, I see no knot density indicator other than the seller's claims, although it's probably true around 400 because attaining this design without a higher knot count would be practically impossible.

If you are seriously considering this rug, we would need to see the following

numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in high resolution and clear images. This will help us evaluate age, originality, likely attribution, and several other important elements.

Hi,
The [http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574716523&toolid=10001&campid=5336111917&customid=Forum&icep_item=270347130855&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg]Rug[/url] is still available. I am not sure what happened to the previous link.

I did contact the seller, but he did not provide all that much information.

I will see if I can get him to send some other photos, but the asking price seems steep to me even if it is a Haji Jalili. He did mention a stain, which can be seen at the center top of the rug in the first photo. He thought that it could be removed though. I am still trying to have the Arabic translated, which may, or may not, be helpful.

The other possibly odd thing that may mean nothing, has to do with your last look at this rug back in July 2008. Several of you were discussing the rug, and out of the blue someone joined this forum and posted a message greatly praising the rug. This person has never posted to the site again - at least with the same username. The written English of the person who posted is a bit broken. The written English of the owner of this rug, who lives in Luxembourg, is also a bit broken. As I said, this may mean nothing, but then again I got burned on an Internet purchase last year - not a rug.

Thanks

Ok hold it.....remember above, I said you should contact Mr. O'Connell? And sotheby's in the UK? See this:

http://www.spongobongo.com/em/sny9905.htm

Get going and make it an adventure. Stop empowering the wrong source for the info you need... THE VENDOR.

See that rug which sold at Sotheby's' Same genre, ostensible circa as the one you are besotted by? U take one look, you know it is not faux. The colors, the depictions, the overall feel of the rug.....no question that rug has seen tens of decades on this planet

Were artists employing shading to depict depth hundreds of years ago? DUH. All over the world to be sure and in many mediums. Might some genius, ambitious rug artisan have been moved to commit to render this knot by knot in a center image of a rug? Sure. But I would have to do a great deal of meticulous research to be convinced. Esp given the condition of that rug.
_________________________________________________________
Hit every single hyperlink in the below link to each and every rug:

http://www.persiancarpet...i_Jalili_Tabriz_Rugs.htm

See each and every example. Extraordinarily finely detailed, each and every one..... not one about dimension in any depiction. They have humility, they in their almost excruciating detail are reverant, spiritual.... and they all comprise a feeling. The one you are ensorcelled by does not comport with any of this. Plus, many of these are silk. And all those listed as antique are incontravertably, palpably visibly so even in the pics ...including the ones in fine condition. Any DRAMA IN THESE RUGS IS NOT ACHIEVED BY EMULATING A GARDEN veriety, not even finely detailed PAINTING WIHT SHADING....AND EACH mm OF EACH RUG...cept for the one the amazing red field which is almost open tho with center medallion ....is covered meticulously and with devotion.

The rug you like is remarkable in many ways, no question, but it is essentially an almost photographic rendering of a holy building in a rug whose knots are pixels. I am just not sure if, given, often rigid tradition within rug art, in this at the turn of the century..that fits within this genre.

Also "15" yeas of experience in an arena this esotric....I ain't impressed by. I looked at what he has sold. Nothing that special, and nothing RARE. Plus, he posts the same feedback for everyone who has bought form him. This would be OK were he a power seller of motherboards.
What does this man do for a LIVING? It ain't sellin rugs if you only consider his ebay activity....tho he may well have a local shop.

Who there contributed to the attributions he posts? And BY WHAT MEASURES??? ASK HIM. How come HE hasn't consiged it to Sotheby's UKwith a big reserve and the sky could be the limit?

Your premise is this rug is some worldclass, atypical example within the genre. That is what the vendor essentially says. That is what U think. Is possible? I guess. Be careful. Remember, if you hear hoofbeats and see a cloud of dust....it's probably not ZEBRA.

Next, here is what I would do: examine each rug in the hyperlinks...until you digest them into yr flesh. Hear their MUSIC. if you have a good printer, and good paper, print them out. Put them on the wall. Live with their collective essence. Then....Exploit any email addresses or links to websites you find on each and every page. There are several. Each is a potential mine of information.

Stop colluding in games remotely and trying to fathom chicanery while remaining static....forget, for apparently a year! Get up and IGNITE... and make this a PRO-ACTIVE adventure-journey of discovery!!

I at least, will be fascinated by the journey if you make it and share the particulars! And, I am sure so will eeryone else here Bitten!!!

See this????

http://www.jozan.net/e-gallery/2752.asp

This got to me, this one. Way more than the God kow wut one you have fallen in luv with. Tho it is from 1859. but just as important and as per example of the above wut I would to.....email the guy in Singapore! Reach out purely to everyone! Make good use of the net! Plant seeds, harvest seeds.

Also, I wanna know the specifics of any religious symbolism on the rug you like. I am clueless about any part of that.....but that is another direction I would wanna go in.. Is that building an actual building? A mosque? Does it exist? Did it? Whence did the image spring? It looks very genertic to me. Tons of stuff to find out about here.

Bottom line-AGE.

I can not believe, given how sleep deprived I still am... I have sat here for all this time, rabidly focused & typing stuff in two threads...and the sun is up and OMG look at the time.. I have become a very sick person of late re rugs. It is a little scary, actually. But when I emerse....I emerse.

This is pretty interesting stuff, boy!!!!!!

Ok,
I received some photos from the owner, but he was not able to give me all that I asked for because he is now in Luxembourg, and the rug is at his home in Kazakhstan. Here is what he says,

"I send you some photos that I have. They do not show fully what you asked. I now live in Luxembourg (Europe). Carpet is in my house in Kazakhstan. If these photos that I send you will not be enough, I can do other only in April when I will be in Kazakhstan. Carpet is not have worn area. Carpet in good condition. carpet have only a few small stain. Carpet has a ring on the back side, he always hung on the wall. I bought this rug from the antique dealers in Switzerland, he sells furniture. This is a big luck for me that he could not understand nothing in the antique carpets. He told me that this carpet from a large, rich palace. He also showed me the furniture from this palace and it is impressive."

By the way, the owner has a website with several other rugs for sale, including the one of interest here. The web site is here.

Here are the photos that he sent me. I hope they offer some more insight.

Thanks

The staining is not so nice. It may not stand out a tremendous amount, but it is there. It looks like someone may have already attempted to remove it, so despite what the seller claims, I would bank on this not coming out. gerrah, how seriously are you pursuing this rug?

Here's my assessment on this rug above: as much as I think someone will like this one, it's got bad staining. Over the course of the past 5 years, I have seen this rug bounce back and forth between numbers, and best offer's being placed and removed on the rug. I would not be surprised if the removal of best offer was correlated with inquiries received.

I Think the seller has some very interesting items, perhaps there was a mis-communication about the statement of being "happy" the person he bought it from had no idea. I do not think the kpsi is 400 but it may be close going by the photograph, the scaling doesn't seem 100 % tho. To state KPSI without actually counting is interesting to me. I think this is an interesting indicator. I find that someone inflating KPSI may sometimes also be protecting other things. So kpsi and seeing examples says more than just the knot density to me.

If I were in the position to acquire rugs I would not pay 1/2 of the asking price and I will tell you why. Although the rug takes a master to weave, Staining is a concern - I do not like someone telling me a stain my come out that appears to have been already been worked on before... And there are some decent size stains there. Perhaps I do not understand the attribution of the Sultan, I cannot imagine this rug at auction fetching much more than 1/4 the asking price. Private party it's okay for more, overseas is a much better market I think - location is important. It still is an impressive rug, but as I said to ron the other day: for the most part in the US people seem to prefer purchasing a rug here that has palmettes and vines as design elements rather than buildings, animals or people in them.

As for posting to the forums, we really look forward to answering some of your questions. It's a great tool for the online community, but we do not like to play "guessing games." As you can imagine, we are at a severe disadvantage by not having a rug in front of us for proper review. With that being said, we appreciate your being forthcoming with numbers, prices paid, and other relevant information before we comment.

Thanks

Forgive me, I only saw this. I luv you hooked up with the For Real Pundit in Singapore. I get u want all of them. OMG you are so addicted, U need rehab. lol But, have you TRANSMITTED IMAGES OF THIS GOD KNOW WUT RUG TO THAT GENTLEMAN? Broadband.....allows transmission it two directions! And U do not need quad core....it is a gimmick, OK?

The gentleman in Singapre would LUV TO SEE THIS RUG!!!! U R afraid he will snap up yr puppy, right? He will not. He is a gentleman.

Pro....how are U determining the age of this puppy? that is is radical departure within the genre of the stated circa....you think this simply owes to true individual genius? these are serious & sincere questions. Apart from stians, how come even if it has bene hung on a wall.....could it be this pristine?