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I also have a locally bought rug needing comments on
btuma6 Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:27:52 PM(UTC)
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You asked if I was trying to flip rugs. What I'm trying to do is sell a couple rugs so that I can then justify to my wife buying a five digit rug. However, depending on how this rug cleans up and finding a place for it, I could wind up keeping it.

This rug is 5'2' by 9'6". The more pictures I took the more obvious the rug needs to be cleared
have
I take medications that make my hands shake and that is why the quality of the pictures is so often bad, but it's either have shaking hands or have my transplanted kidney reject so it's a easy pick. I need a tripod.

I don't know exactly why but my first thought was tabriz, but I have no bases I saying it except I like tabriz rugs.

Any help on region and general thoughts on the rug would be greatly appreciated.
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btuma6 attached the following image(s):
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:05:07 PM(UTC)
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I hear you on the 5 digit rug :) It's a good thing to approach the way you are doing so. It's really helpful and a great way to work up. It's much more fun to go about it like this rather than just splurging into a gigantic investment. these pics came out very well

this looks to me like a pakistan or afghan weave. appears to be a symmetrical knot, seeing both sides of the node. Probably has a floppy handle, but that also depends on the wefting. It probably doesn't feel particularly dense and you may be able to push pile around and get down deeper into the base when poking around with your finger.

The wool seems okay, but often when you see pile blooming like snapped image below, it's a slightly looser yarn. less strands in one staple. Some producers estimate the amount of fibers spun into yarn by referencing them as a "count." 30 count, 60 count, etc.... my guess is a slightly lower count than most high knot count rugs would call for, despite the rug seeming to have decent knot density.

Attractive design, but in consideration of the above, a overall photo would help. It could be a tabriz design. the last image of the design element is known as a palmette, which is a stylized flower seen in a lot of tabriz, kashans, and some kermans. The colors are great. I'm a sucker for reds and blues. what is the asking price.
RugPro attached the following image(s):
staple.jpg
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#3 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:18:27 PM(UTC)
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Is blooming like shedding-fraying?????
btuma6 Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:20:31 PM(UTC)
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I don't know, I was waiting on your reply. I was hoping it was a tabrizs tht I could sell it for as much as $400-$500 on ebay with a startng price of $250. I thougth that due to my naivity and the high knot count, but the Pakistian factor disqualifies that. I only bought it for a $100. So now I'm a little lost as far as strategy.
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#5 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:28:01 PM(UTC)
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if the rug is in overall good shape and fully intact with no stains or other probs, you can absolutely resell it for 250. I would think this would be pretty easy actually and that's def. a very fair price. 450-500 you may have to wait a bit, but I don't think it's out of the question. I'd really have to see the whole rug tho. nothing noted as criticism, just info
btuma6 Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:11:20 PM(UTC)
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I would guage it as very good shape with full fringe, salvage not even touched etc. These pictures should help and add validity to your thickness thoughts I had always wondered why this type of picture was added. Now I know. My fear of ebay is that I have only sold one product so it would seem hard for buyers to trust no matter what quarantee. I have seem many new sellers not even recieving bids. Some of that might have to do with pictures that add. Craigslist is not an avenue.
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RugPro Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:20:07 PM(UTC)
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Tabriz is a good guess. I think the design is Kashan. go with eBay, have it verified. I can talk to the big guy if you're interested.

Out of interest - can you work your hands into the pile easier than other rugs you've come across? Does it have the floppy feel?
btuma6 Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:27:18 PM(UTC)
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Please let me know how to get it verified as that would be a great idea.

It definately isnt' floppy. Even before you asked I tried the finger test. My other rugs are Nian and they have a close cut pile. It was hard to tell but I couldnt tell an obvious difference. So you think it could be Iranian?
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#9 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:01:17 PM(UTC)
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The rug is probably afghani or pakistani but with a Tabriz (persian) design. but I don't think it's persian. wool pile cotton foundation.
btuma6 Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:33:39 PM(UTC)
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Way off the subject, but being in Portland where Atiyeh Bros is located. how collectiable is an 1920's good condition 8X9 Atiyeh Kirman. I've read their story and I have rugs identifed as Atiyeh's Kirmans, most if not all are Lavor Kirman/s , but I didn't know if they were actually more marketable than a plain Kerman of like quality.
That's a very obsure question so I know there might not be an answer.

Thanks
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#11 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:30:38 PM(UTC)
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This is an interesting question. I know of Atiyeh as having imported very nice kermans. I do not know the best way to ID this vintage as being their import. do they have a trademark label or signed?

my opinion

For older pieces: I think semi-antique rugs which are clearly and distinctly from specific manufacturers can help marketability, which may or may not have an affect on value. I think these jalili tabriz rugs from the late 19th century is a somewhat of a hoaky way to catch attention, and it works. it creates a buzz, it has a certain clout. A lot of people say Mohtashem kashan tends to catch eyes at the auction as well. at the same time, the names are usually attributed to high aesthetic value rugs of good quality which would be expected to get higher premium. Zeigler was another name.

Now, given all else equal regarding two rugs: one identifiable, one not. both of same grade, colors, market condition, etc....

my finding for "name brand" rugs post 1900 and pre-1950. This is not proof, truth or fact. I find desirability of a branded rug sometimes goes more than just the rugs themselves, but the character of those who imported. those who were respected in the industry were respected for multiple reasons. There were several importers in the early 20th with good business people behind the helm running them: highly reputable, fair practices, justifiable prices, strict quality control, reliable goods that made a lasting impression. In this business, respect and reputation is everything. Problem is, I do know of some importers over the years who are NOT well regarded within the industry, some who have blatantly abused consumers with pricing and low quality, creating unjustifiable hype for their product, and were sketchy to work with. Their reputation is poor, but their goods can be spotted today here and there in showrooms and antique stores, sometimes identified within inventories. I actually know of sellers who incorporate their opinion of the character behind identifiable rugs into price unknowingly. Sometimes it detracts from the asking price, sometimes it helps. To be honest, as a customer I would much rather purchase a rug from someone who is respected in an industry than have it be a product of someone who is clearly looked down upon. If AIG execs sold carpets... ouch!

I do know of Atiyeh, I know their older goods (not saying the new don't) have a made a good lasting impression from those I've talked to. I'm sure I've seen many, many of their rugs in person, just not clearly ID'd. I think if someone is diligent enough to be able to clearly identify and accurately describe their relevance in the business, it would surely not detract from the value only be an asset.

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#12 Posted : Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:54:58 PM(UTC)
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This, above, should win a prize. Including the AIG analogy; I have a client who writes speeches there. He has the soul of an unworthy, the end justifies the means rug dealer.
btuma6 Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:00:50 AM(UTC)
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Thank you very much. I know in the '80 Tom Atiyeh worked with the VP of Iran to re open Kirman production so their reputation still stands. I won't neccessaily say that I would buy a rug locally just because Atiyeh's was sellling it, but that is another branch of the business.
From your explanation I take it that just the name doesn't make it gold The desirabliliy of the rug would have to come first. This particular rug doesn't have the best color pattern for most homes. I doubt that I will be buying it for an investment snice the cost will be near a $1,000, I have my eye on something I really want and it probably would take a long time to resell this rug in today's market.

From these pictures it doesn't look like an amazing rug,

You have been very helpful
btuma6 attached the following image(s):
atiyehlabel.jpg
atiyekirman.jpg
atiyefull.jpg
RugPro Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:53:50 AM(UTC)
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It's a really, really nice looking piece.

Desirability of the rug does come first. I really like that Kerman.

btuma - you mentioned the size of the original rug on this post to be 5'2"x9'6. The rug appears to be shorter than this in length. Does the size include fringe, or is the photographs of the full rug just create the appearance of a wider piece?
btuma6 Offline
#15 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:13:09 PM(UTC)
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What type of value would you put on this rug both in real value and private party value.

It good information to know that you think it's a nice rug. My wife didn't like the light blue, but that is also because of out houses color.
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#16 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:01:19 PM(UTC)
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I'm not to familiar with the exact specs on the Atiyeh Kermans of this vintage. I suspect, and this is my guess, the knot density would be in the vicinity 225 KPSI, with a 2 ply yarn as that's pretty much what the top of the line Kermans of mid 20th century tended to be. Atiyeh may may have imported several qualities, I just don't know off the bat. Right now I'm talking upper crust Kermans with exceptional dyes, no abrash, thick pile... The one's which were found in well-to-do homes. There were American design Kermans (which these are sometimes referred to as) which did exceed 225 KPSI, but they were few and far between.

Value of these rugs is way across the board, and I would really have to see excellent, excellent photographs to give give a ballpark. I've heard of ridiculously low prices people have been able to snatch these rugs up at.

Kerman rugs were well known to come in very large sizes, not particularly conducive to today's market. Now, people look for the 8x10 and 9x12, and in some cases, mansion size rugs tend to fetch higher premium too, but of course, this really depends. My feeling is that the best of these rugs are the ones which do not feature too much pink pastels. Slightly deeper blues than the one posted seem to sell better as well.

I'm going on a LOT of assumptions here, I have no idea what this rug looks like, but I'll give you information as I know it from my experience.

Kermans are not like *select* instances like an antique heriz or serapi. Condition is king with Kermans as is the other mentioned branding above.

The upside to this vintage kerman was the thick pile. People loved them. The downside to these rugs were the thick pile, They BLOOM easily with washing and use. The problem is a lot of these rugs were used. You see some that have dry rot in the corner from potting plants, some with very short fringe, frayed corners.... People do not tend to put much money into these ones...

Please read this carefully, because while the numbers seem large, the condition for these rugs and importers they come from do matter a great deal, as does the holding time and carrying cost in a collection & inventory. From my experience, brand new old Kermans such as the previously mentioned higher end pieces can fetch upwards of $12,000-17,000 in a 9x12 size if they have excellent colors, excellent character, and are MINT. This would be NYC Retail. I'm talking Absolutely MINT like they were cut off the loom 60+ year old semi antiques with choice wool and never used. Justifiably so with the price if the rug may be traced back to a prominent importer. Finding a rug like this in perfect condition (these are not your run of the mill Tabatabaei Tabriz rugs) is like unearthing a mint condition 1955 thunderbird that starts right up. It's a very rare event. Arjomand kermans in the previously mentioned condition tend to be around 10-14 K in similar condition. These are all in IDEAL sizes, Ideal Colors, Ideal Condition

However, these rugs were used. But even If they show the Slightest bit of wear, have fraying of the fringe, even with a consistently even pile, I've seen this price halved NYC retail. If the rug shows small spot repairs, poor refringe, repiled areas, just a slightly uneven pile, reduce by an additional 40-70% more on top of the already reduced 50%. So the value decreases very quickly according to condition.

Private party I can't even get into. It varies too much. I've seen the prices way high, way low, appropriately so, not so much, it's all across the board. It's an item by item basis, and Kermans, as many rugs, really fall into their own category. Not saying this to be tooting my horn, but small things about special rugs that most people would overlook can really impair value.


I posted this before, and need confirmation when you have a moment:

btuma - you mentioned the size of the original rug (the Kashan design) on this post to be 5'2"x9'6. The rug appears to be shorter than this in length. Does the size include fringe, or is the photographs of the full rug just create the appearance of a wider piece?
btuma6 Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:07:33 PM(UTC)
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I did see the rug and immediately fell in love with it. I think you will do the same when you see the addtional pictures, the red are simply sticking etc.
She bought the rug from a estate sale several and Atiyeh's themselves appraised it at $6,000. My experience with them is they are usually high. I had a rug appriased for $9,000 and that seemed high. So I'm not sure what value that makes it now. Several years ago she had the fringe, redown repaired etc. As you said the rug is thick and by it's softness very high quality. I didn't get an exact count, but it seemed will above 200, probably closer to four.

I should clarify. She did not have an Atiyeh appraisal, there was on attached or estimated from Atiyeh's at the estate sale

The measure of the rug is almost square as the picture showed. 7X8 so it is an odd almost small size

Take a look
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RugPro Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:02:43 PM(UTC)
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I posted this before, and need confirmation when you have a moment:

btuma - you mentioned the size of the original rug (the Kashan design) on this post to be 5'2"x9'6. The rug appears to be shorter than this in length. Does the size include fringe, or is the photographs of the full rug just create the appearance of a wider piece?
btuma6 Offline
#19 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:41:52 PM(UTC)
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I'm sorry I thought you were refering to the Kirman. You are right, it was a typo. It is 5X8 not 5x9.
RugPro Offline
#20 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:32:20 PM(UTC)
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that's what I though. let me know if/when you're ready to post that 5x8 for sale.

I love the kerman. the blue is fantastic, but you're right, most people don't go for this anymore! I still enjoy it.
btuma6 Offline
#21 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:53:44 PM(UTC)
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I'm ready to go with some much better pictures. Do you need the better pictures?

Thanks
RugPro Offline
#22 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 7:29:35 PM(UTC)
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If you're up to it, sure!


1: Number 4, 5 & 6 seen here

2: if you could carefully inspect for any stains (I saw a couple in one of the photos, these will be important to catch), repairs, or other areas with condition issues such as worn areas please take photographs.

3: A close up parting of the pile being parted like the first photograph

4: Also please describe ends and fringe, plus condition of edges and whether the rug needs a cleaning.

With the kermans, as noted before, condition is everything. I don't want to give an unrealistic number so photos are important. Each image will help me to assess the condition. The photographs of the 5x8 came out well. With similar lighting to the corner photograph and medallion you probably won't need a tripod and would be perfect if available.
btuma6 Offline
#23 Posted : Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:00:39 PM(UTC)
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I'm ready to go with some improved pictures which bring out the detail of the rug. I am sure your appraisal that the rug's pile isn't as thick is correct.
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#24 Posted : Friday, February 20, 2009 10:46:15 AM(UTC)
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Btuma!

Just got this for the Pakistani Rug

http://www.rugrag.com/Au...&InventoryNumber=106

You can link to it when it goes up to eBay using just a bit of HTML. If you're not familiar with it, let me know and I can help.
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#25 Posted : Friday, February 20, 2009 12:49:17 PM(UTC)
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Wow! Huge! Our Certificates of Authenticity!!!!!! HUGE! Only one that MEANS SOMETHING. That is very lovely rug!!!
RugPro Offline
#26 Posted : Friday, February 20, 2009 1:04:06 PM(UTC)
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Lol Jilly. It does look nice, doesn't it?

Btuma,

I thought I would also add some information. I'm not 100%, but I believe the Atiyeh who imported the Kermans were the Atiyeh bros who were located in New York. The west coast is related, but from what I understand, are not the ones who imported these older Kermans.
btuma6 Offline
#27 Posted : Saturday, February 21, 2009 2:08:42 PM(UTC)
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Rugpro I've put this on three times. so I don't know if the thread is too long. I am reading to list the rug, actually have for a short 3 day sale so can again on Monday
RugPro Offline
#28 Posted : Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:12:39 PM(UTC)
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don't know what's going on with the forum, there have been some glitches but it may not allow threads to exceed 2 pgs.

if you post the link to your ebay rug, they can link back the verification to your item. Otherwise people will have to press the back button, but that's no biggie
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#29 Posted : Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:34:57 PM(UTC)
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Yes, all it will allow me is the "Quick Reply" function. The regular Reply button is gone.
RugPro Offline
#30 Posted : Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:53:16 PM(UTC)
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That's so odd. I know the text has gotten a lot smaller. I use the "post reply" text which is very small in red under the thread. must be a bug in the new forum.
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