NOTE: nobody need waste time responding to my other recent threads, they are obsolete. Here is where I have arrived at in The journey.

This post has roots in another post. For a change. Hah. But I think we should start fresh cause I am am a very confusing human. Also exhausting when obsessed. I know this.

Now, I am getting unstuck from my bias toward rugs made in Iran, given all I have learned over time re rugs currently being produced. I see the Indo neos of several genres are good value, often made much better than what is ostensibly being made in Iran. Then, I learned neos now made i China.....often made even better than those made in India. Soon I will get frequent flyer Magic carpet miles, right? No.

Below is one of the links to explain why I am making this ad hoc trip:

http://www.nejad.com/consumer/production2.htm

Relevant section:
"Today China is one of the largest producers in the world and collaborates closely with American importers and designers to meet local color and quality needs.

The traditional Chinese rugs feature large central medallions incorporating motifs and symbols, such as animals, flowers, and vases, framed by wide borders. China is now exporting Sino-Persian rugs that emulate the finest rugs made in Persia. Silk, wool, and silk & wool rugs are made of the highest quality found anywhere in the world."

I am also learning as I count kpsis, Google, communicate with vendors offering these neo carpets which emulate the classic Persians styles to some degree, but again, I now think, made better. Antique rugs a whole other animal, and largely beyond my budget.
_____________________________________________________________________________
First I will address a very banal, not special but I need to get real, neo Kashan made in India and offered by hopefully not 1800gettakenadvantageof.com.....but some other dealer in NJ, wiTH at least the integrity of Tony Soprano, OK?

I am learning; I know ths is banal rug with wallpaper field, but I am trying to be realistic and with open mind:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e...IT&item=150326097753
pls esp see the image of the underside.

Next, seeing image of underside, I felt the wefts were going in wrong direction. I sent this:
Dear nycrugs,

Hi,

Not to be insulted, but given the APPARENT visible direction of the wefts in this rug, it looks machined. Can you supply a better image of the underside including a ruler?

Thanks much,
Jill
in Manhattan
______________________________
Today found this, but he attached the same pic in the listing:
Sorry forgot the photo :-)

Best regards,

Daniel - NYCrugs
Phone (201)541-2388
Fax (201)541-2389
info@nycrugs.com
______________________________
first reply to the above:
Hi, again, Daniel.

Sorry for this, but might you have a clear, hi res image of the underside with a ruler or a quarter? Maybe Macromode? Or else I can't count. Wanna borrow my little Nikon?

Still confused by the apparent direction of the wefts. They appear parallel to the selvedge edges.

Jill
______________________________
Follow up reply to his response:
Hi # 3:

No need to use two rules as I did in the attached, I have method to scale in both directions. But attached is image of the underside of the rug I wanna replace. See the dots, Daniel? This is how I do it when I can't see a rug I am interested in... in person.

The rug in question---hate this rug-- has 144 kpsi. I just need an image as clear as this with a rule along the wefts..... which in this carpet as we see, are perpendicular to the selvedge edges as all hand knotted rugs are.

U already know all this, Daniel; you are a rug guy.

Thanks again,
Jill
______________________________

I am triyng very hard to be patient. I ask clear and direct & increasingly informed not capricious questions, make simple requests and almost never receive the data I ask for. Forget images. And I will gladly pay for the latter, it's only fair.
_____________________________________
Edit: Here is another Indo Kashan, prettier, real possibility one from this vendor, plus it's underside looks normal:
http://cgi.ebay.com/9x12...amp;_trksid=p4634.c0.m14
*******************************************

Onto CHINA!

I found a complex, cept it WORKS...atypical, Sino, neo Tabriz rug I am mesmerized by at the Masterpiece vendor where Classy Nancy is; where they have that Indo Sarouk rug I adore which is too small.

This one, below, is silk. High kpsi. I need things I do not have to coddle or live in fear of.....from sweaters to puters to a rug not offended by normal human traffic. (My sarouk nobody worried about for even a nano.) I read rugs with silk or partly silk pile U must coddle. I do not wanna SOUFFLE RUG, ok? But I will post it so everyone can see it. U may need meds, in person bet it's a bit much.....but I like it a LOT on the LCD, AND if description is accurate---tho kpsi are listed differently within the listing, I do trust Nancy, and I am sure the count is formidable.... I think it is huge bargain. IS THIS NOT A SPLENDID, glorious THING???:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e...IT&item=370086989514
________________________________
Edit: We do have 9 foot ceilings in this building, I could hang in on a wall. (Dark Rug Humor.)

Am working, just saw this. Before I clicked I was sure it would be my new luv (I am now the Rug Slut): The SINO SILK one. I was just going to past what I Googled into:

. Natural Pile - Animal Origin
Silk – Although it is expensive, silk is one of the most beautiful and popular piles used in making high-quality area rugs. It comes from the cocoon of mulberry silkworms, which, unfortunately, kills the larvae. Some animal-rights proponents urge people to consider some of the artificial silk alternatives to the real thing. Silk is one of the strongest natural fibers, but loses up to 20% of its strength when it gets wet. It has poor elasticity and when stretched tends to remain that way. In addition, silk can be damaged by prolonged exposure to sunlight and can be attacked by insects. So with all of its many drawback and limitations, why are silk area rugs so incredible popular? There is no other pile that has the beauty, sheen and feel of real silk!

Pro.....do you not luv the silk one? From China? Despite its fringes are too big and long? While I have lots of sun in here, I like sun and so do all my orchids.....I would not stretch it or LET IT GET RAINED ON, drop raisins on it and squash them in as there are a couple in the fringers of the garbage rug, I see.... or let people throw up on it. lol You are a real Rug Person. Pls tell why this is not the ultimate glorious rug of all time, below? Worthy of Royalty? Can you see this in The White House?????? But not my house.....it would get messed up and I would fear it, not LOVE it. In that, The Godfather....got it wrong. lUV=good; fear=BAD. Rugs are made for walking. I aint high maintenance.....I can't have a rug that is.

But if U think the other one is OK & good design, I think I will just demand & offer to pay for...an image wit a rule,r and count & if it passes... buy it. Bet it IS around 200 kpsi. It is good buy. I just wanna rug. I am tired. My optical mouse is EXHAUSTED. But I have learned sooooo much!!!!! Cause of HERE.

Valentine's Day Update, hopefully not masacre. TITLE: NO PICee, NO PAYPAL.

Subtitle: WUT IS THE PROBBBBLEMMMM???
__________________________________________________

Hey!

OK good U R taking time.....hope it's not worktime. I need to count for myself, Daniel; this is why I went to Cornell. lol I have been looking for a rug for weeks, Daniel; and what I see, in many elements, is misrepresented. I deal in good faith always and will settle for no less. I am only size 2 OUTSIDE! So when U return, I will look forward to what I need to make final determination on if this is The Rug.

Agian, it is simple: I need to count and know precise kpsi.

And, as U know, many newly made neo persian rugs have issues including abrasah and color run & related stuff. They are crap. I grew up with fine Persian rugs: worldclass "American" Sarouks, one from my grandparents.........I was too stupid to "get" them. Appears what they are now making in Iran....if they actually are....is garbage. I only recently learned that in My Hunt.

I can't afford antique in the conditon I grew up with.....but I now know what I am doing,

Next week!
Jilly

In a message dated 14-Feb-2009 12:19:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, info@nycrugs.com writes:
Hi Jill, I will not be at the office until Wed and can email you a photo then.. sorry for the delay. As you can see from the photo of the back the weave is tight and there should not be any concern..?

There is no abrash or color run - rug in in mint condition.. please let me know if you have any other questions.

Regards, -Daniel


On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 2:09 AM, <Jillmorrisone@aol.com> wrote:

Daniel! I mailed U from ebay, this is more detailed. Pls transmit clear image of underside of corner of this indo Mashad with a ruler along the wefts. http://rover.ebay.com/ro...9&mtid=824&kw=lg

Important, additional questions if I may;
1) Does it have any abrash?
2) Any color tun?

Thanks, Daniel,
Jill

Update mail to Daniel, with attachment:

Daniel:

As per example, see attached. one of yr collegaues there, across the rivah....sleazoids with terrible reputation, the rug site I recently joined, comprising real and principled experts, who will and have the chops to validate the integrity of a given vendor... keeps trying to instill some into them......1800gettakenadvantageof.......listed this neo Sarouk on ebay as having 300 KPSI.

I blew up their image and counted, turned out to be 182. Posted all of it in a thread. Even if I adored something they offered, I would never consider doing business with them. Off by 20, not so terrible but abject BS=unacceptable. Current economic meltdown meant to expunge America of all dog and pony shows.

I am not asking for these data capriciously or to annoy Daniel!

Jilly
_______________________________________
I now have zero tolerance for all chicanery. I mean it.

Weeewwww. How can you be disappointed given I know nuthin? lol. I thought differently cause of that article I pasted a link to---see initial post #1, I even pasted the portion along with the link--- about newly made neo persians coming out of China now. My take from the piece was they are not what they used to be. Tho that article was probably misleading. I now see.

I cherish yr candor; candor is one of the best things in life.

We should sell this to HBO. I am serious. I will write the proposal. This is a whole rug mini series, OK? Get ready:

Dear Miss Jill,

I can understand your feelings very well. But please take it easy. There is always a way to solve a problem.

Since we have been in the carpets business line for more than 20 years. This is a generation business. So I think may there is something that I can help you.

It seems that you are in Beijing, China now. Could you spare the time to have a visit to our exhibition hall? you can go to visit after your working time. I will wait for you in the exhibition hall.

Seeing is believing. You can judge quality after you see it. We will show you how to weave the knots. Then you will have a clear idea.

That is the way I can help you solve your problems.

Looking forward to your reply!

Yours sincerely,

Rose

Email address:
henglidacarpetchina@yahoo.cn
Website: www.silkrugs.com.cn www.silkcarpetonline.com www.carpetchina.net
Click here for more pictures: http://henglidacarpet.photo.163.com
Contact person: Rose (overseas department) ??
Mobile phone: 0086-13811035968
MSN: liuyan0377@live.cn
Address:
HENGLIDA CARPET CO,.LTD, BEIJING BRANCH
Yong An Li Street Number 10, Jian Guo Men Wai,
Chao Yang area
Beijing (Peking)
China

Hi again Rose!

We have a small but serious misunderstanding. I am in New York City. Alas, I have never been to China, but I do have friends there who write software. I test it for them; they are fabulous.

I would love to meet you and also see the knotting process......but it will not be in the immediate future, obviously. hah hah I live very, very far away, Rose.

Can you tell me if your rug makers use the same knotting techniques the Persians did and still do? Or to they do it a different way?

I really appreciate your help.
Jilly

Hey. MUCH appreciate this clarification, Pro. My default mode---IT RUNS IN THE BACKGROUND AT ALL TIMES--IS to learn every minute about everything. In my new rug hunt-obsession, it is particularly distilled, I admit. So, when I get confused, I just keep going. I also automatically help everyone all the time whenever I can... and feel it is great privilege. I also never give others the assignment to be perfect. Nobody is perfect and giving others the assignment to be that is very sad, and very toxic, I think. I see people doing this all the time.

Pro,. I think I have worn you out.....and you maybe projected that onto Ms. Rose. I reached out to people trying to clarify the Chinese knot thingy, nobody put a gun to her head, she is like me, and like you...happy to help.

But TRULY MIRACULOUS part, Pro......U gotta sit down 4 this one, struck me on the subway: see she thought I lived near her? In CHINA? OMG. Suddenly, I got....an ALIEN FROM THE RUG GOD.. has inhabited by fine Cherry keyboard. It makes me bid on rugs I do not really want, have no intention of bidding on...and (here it comes)....when I typed the title of this thread, "Moving to India and China"...The rug Alien in the KB....ACTUALLY MOVED ME TO CHINA!

That is why rose recognized I was right there, close to her, and I should stop by for the tour of the knotting!!!

(Note: Jilly humor is about quantum leaps; U gotta get used to it, lol)
__________________________________________________
Seriously.....i am crazy about and have intense, exultant, chemical responses to that Sino Tabriz. Chemistry is entirely individual-specific, yes? I adore it. I would gladly pay what they want for it. Problem there is.....from my reading, as I said, I would live in fear of it. I do not like high maintenance things....or living in fear of anything. I am not meant to have a silk rug. But I also think nobody could render a design that complex.....which also WORKS AESTHETICALLY and has an integrated essence as an individual entity. I think ow in rugs, this is uncommon.
I need to learn more patience. I was positive I would have my rug weeks ago. I think I am insulting the Rug God who has his or her own timetable-agenda for me to learn stuff.

As per the above:

1)
Rose, you are amazing person. Generous of heart and pure. I love this. You got all this right. I am looking for a rug for my livingroom. I grew up with fine persian rugs. I was ignorant until I joined a fabulous rug site and began to learn. I have come upon a gorgeous, newly made persian style rugs made in China. I will link you below. tho I think a silk rug is wrong for me and owuld require too much care. But someone suggested the knotting methods in China may not be as good as what they have always done in Iran....formerly Persia. I am just trying to learn.

But today, this lovely expert amended that a bit. He is a real expert and I feel very lucky to know him. Also YOU. today, he also posted that I may be driving you crazy and he feels bad for you. Please do not let anyone do that if it is true.

Here is the rug:http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574716523&toolid=10001&campid=5336111917&customid=Forum&icep_item=370086989514&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg

Warmly form the USA,
Jill
In a message dated 16-Feb-2009 4:15:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, henglidacarpetchina@yahoo.cn writes:
Dear Miss Jill,

I am sorry I have missed some points. You seem have known something about Chinese rugs.

Do you mean that you have seen many Chinese rugs in New York city? You want to buy hand-made persian rugs, but you can't make sure if the Chinese rugs have the same way as Persians. So you still don't decide which kind to buy.

Am I right about your true problems?

Looking forward to your reply.

yours sincerely,

Rose
___________________________________
2)
Miss Rose.....Bless you for this info! I am going to post it on my rugsite....where people know you already!

It is so good to know that there are people of your faublousness in the country which owns America!!!1 Little joke but it is also true.

Jill

In a message dated 16-Feb-2009 5:40:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, henglidacarpetchina@yahoo.cn writes:
Dear Miss Jill,

I will give you an answer in my opinion in this business line.

Our Chinese rug makers have two ways to weave rugs:
one way is by double knots which is the same way as in Iran. The other way is by single knots which also will happen in Iran. These are two different qulities. It depends on you if you can tell them from the qulity, the density and may be price.

That is my answer.

Yours sincerely,

Rose

[the bold above I did.]
*******************************
Edit: I now need to find out just how high maintenance & terrifying having a silk pile rug would be.Can anyone give me info on this????? I will also now mail Nancy and ask her if this glorious thing is single or double knotted. They list the kpsi at 300. I will also ask and pay for an image of the underside closer and sharper & with a ruler. But the one they posted in the listing, looks pretty fine and Tight to me. I will upload it here.

I just mailed Nancy, ASKED HER IF IT HAS SINGLE OR DOUBLE KNOTS, and insisted she let me pay for the new pic. I also just noticed they list the pile on tHIS as silk and WOOL.

I think this chinese rug is very pretty. but I'm not sure she understands the implications of what double knot means. That's often referred to as a jufti knot seen in jaldars in my experience. this means one knot is tied around 4 warp threads instead of 2 - halving work time and decreasing longevity. Oh well. Personally I doubt this is a double knotted rug, but if she has better pics of the back we can see how packed the back is.

Well, I was about to send money to Nancy via ebay For pic; I open this rug on their eBay page and now I see it is at buy now for 3K. WUT?????? When I saw it and luved it and seriously considered it, FORGET SPENT A LOT OF TIME FOLLOWING UP TO LEARN ABOUT IT.....it was like $1,499 with big shipping....tho my take it is heavy rug. I do not UNDERSTAND THIS, OK? AT ALL.

I FIND THIS VERY depressing FORGET CONFUSING.
______________________________________________
Just send this.....harldy for the first time, I am LOOSING Rug TRUST!!!!!

I am now confused, Nancy!! Just went to send pic money via ebay.....when I first saw this lovely thing and then spent MUCH time learning about Chinese rugs.....it was $1,499 plus shipping.

Just now it appears it is at 3K buy now. Am I HALLUCINATING?????

Jill

ASSERT CONTROL???? What is this, the NFL?????? JESUS, just keep it real, show some integrity, that is ALL I WANT. I despise games. I liked her and felt trust. Now that is gong away.

Well I do not like this "fishing." It erodes trust. It is TRASH. I deal in good faith and do NOT PLAY GAMES. Trust is the linchpin of all things and it is EARNED.

A store puts a price 0n an item: $4.99 for a pound of flame raisins. U learn, over time, which store sells what for what. Then, you decide and you just pay. It is simple. It is called CAPITALISM. That does Not include the end JUSTIFIES THE MEANS TAPDANCES.

Way back, she asked for money for the new pic of underside of another rug. I said I would be happy and this is only fair. Then she mailed me she would do it for free on the other rug; they were abused often by online buyers, she f3elt I was in a different class, etc. TO THE EXTENT IT HAS.....CALLED CORRUPTION, that is why we are facing something akin to The Great Depression.

So now, that she did one for free, I felt I should pay for the new one. For me, it is normal and only fair. I am not about trying to Get Over, OK? I identify with The Other. Nobody normal does otherwise! Thennnnnn,. just now.....I saw the quantium leap in the price!!!!! Sorry, guys, these are not SOUND BUSINESS PRACTICES. Not for humans with REFLEXIVE INTEGRITY WHO DEAL IN GOOD FAITH.

Pro, could U check out the new sarouk in New England? I know I get fired up about this one and that one before learning all i need to knowpRO.... BUT IF IT IS OLD, isn't it fabulous? Possibly?

Plus, calling this Larry guy at their USP STORE UP THEAH (that is how they prounce there up there) and finding out how to ship.....ain no biggie. I just never did it before. Nor bid on anything on the phone. Or, OK, EVER ATTENDED AN ACTUAL AUCTION. Forget online during live auction... which I have Now seen, and it is not for me, believe me. I need AUDIO IN REAL TIME.

Again I feel it is ony fair and just at this point to pay her for this pic. When she told me they get abused by online clients....i knew she was't kidding. It is the dramatic price tapdance I can not abide. HEADS UP: they DOUBLED the price of this rug, OK? ADDED ANOTHER HUNDRED PERCENT. Rug & roll, I think, did the same thing with that Mashad I liked for 11 minutes.

For me, this is alienating as hell, verging on Deal Breaker. Maybe others enjoy it.....or even think it's business as usual, or what everyone does and rationalizes it, and then doing it themselves...on that basis. I do not. NEVAH WILL.

Have you any idea how much sleep I have lost tring to research newly made, Chinese rugs and the knotting and the whole deal? I am not a lazy human and I do not play games. I have minus 12 respect for anyone who does, and that is just the way it is.

Know how many offers I get every eveNing work shift from clients to work with them off the site I partner with for less than they pay on the site? I never would. Not only cause it is in my contract....just cause I never would, OK? But when a client falls on hard times as some are now....I do work with them off the site....but for No Money. I am too selfish about my happy inside to be Faust.. It is a healthy form of selfishness.

Apparently, one, neither wall St, nor the Banking industry nor Rug dealers, ETC., get. Far too often. TRAGIC THIS IS.

Alas I am too many generations & too Ivy Leagued away. U think my grandfather or my parents would have been victimized as I was when I sold my rug? Nevah. Nor will I be agian. I need to reclaim my NAPLES.

She's trying to close the deal by making you think it's worth much more... "If you finalize by the end of the week" she wants you to make a DECISION. PRESSURE ONNNNNN

I think it's a jerk move to double it with an option of best offer. Assuming it's fair, I have to see the back of the rug .... there are 2 situations, assuming they know what they're doing (or maybe they don't):

1 - if they advertise the rug with a "straight shooter" asking price of say 1500, they pay a final value fee to ebay...

2 -if they advertise the rug with a 3000 price buy it now asking price is with a best offer - even if they're offered 1500 and accept, they still have to to pay more in final value fees/listing costs than if they just advertised it at 1500....

If they have to pay more in final value fee/listing costs with best offer, why do they do it?

what they're doing is assuming someone will come along with an offer basing it off the perceived value of a 3k rug.... the objective is to entice buyers that they may offer a price higher than their 1500 "bottom line", or hope someone will be willing to negotiate higher in counter offers. We all saw what the price was, we all see what it is now. I think this is not your everyday coincidence that they see someone is interested and raise the price. Rugs with Best Offers sell, and often sellers can get what they want. It also gives them higher profit potential they did not previously have with a starting bid or lower buy it now that did not sell.

It reminds me of the end of the day at a flea market. If the seller is on a roll, they'll want to keep prices high. If they had a slow day and they need the money to pay tomorrow's rent, they may accept a pretty low price.

Bottom line is, if they've had the higher price listed all day and it didn't sell, there's an opportunity cost of potentially selling the item early with a satisfactory/fair profit Versus an inflated price/selling at a premium. They want to maximize their profit potential. Can't blame them, but it's an annoying game to see them fishing like this because they're waiting to snap someone up.