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#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:48:09 PM(UTC)
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Seems in atypiically decent shape. Right size. Right age. It's a Sarouk. And yet, I find it unattractive. Again, mine and its essence are stuck in my vision. I find THIS busy,diluted...again, arbirary in it's design and colors, not compelling... and even WUSy and wimpy

And what boggles most, is their waaaaay low ASKING PRICE ......factoring in U know they would sell if for less via "make offer". Can anyone explain this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-PERSIAN-SAROUK-1930-86x123-VERY-LARGE-RARE_W0QQitemZ190283052085QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRugs?hash=item190283052085&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1307|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A200

And can anyone tell me what a "lapel" is. Or, do they mean label???

just saw this seller has not good feedback; now I need to look at that. Good I have all of ebay set on "show 200", and my scroll wheel set high in Control Panel> MOUSE.

This don resemble any Sarouk of that era I have ever seen. Tho face it, I have only seem them in last couple of weeks cept for the ones I gew up with. I think something not right here. For a change.
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:13:49 PM(UTC)
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That Jilly, is in my opinion a remarkable design and color sarouk. I would ask for more photos. Appears to be 1940's-50s. Outstanding design execution, but could have some lower pile. it appears to have a tag on it. Can you ask them what it says, why they're selling and how they plan to ship?
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#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:14:21 PM(UTC)
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OK....anyone moved to make the time, scroll thru their feedback. It is abysmal. And note, even some of the "positive" ones are negative! Many well meaning souls hadda go to PayPal. That must be enervating and disgusting but I would do it in a heartbeat as well, should I ever need to. I never did, but U nevah know.

Bettcha this rug ain't what they say at all! I am going to poke dem wit a stick re asking some questions. I hate malfeasance. Wouldn't it be amazing were some rug vendor to start on eBay and call themselves Malfeasance Rugs? hahahahahahaha

I might even buy from them because of that!
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#4 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:16:39 PM(UTC)
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I can see there is some lower area, and bright red rugs almost always photograph better with sunlight. ask for more photos. Lower left seems to have some haze. Upper right had a little too. It's a beautiful design though.
RugPro attached the following image(s):
lower left.jpg
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#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:27:30 PM(UTC)
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Just sent this:

Dear js62382,

Hello.

I have never seen a semi-antique Sarouk resembling this. If I may ask,

1) By what means have you determined its age?
2) By what means have you determined its country & region of origin?
3) What does the label say?
4) What are the KPSI?

I look forward to these data,
Jill


- ariesjill
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#6 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:29:37 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
That Jilly, is in my opinion a remarkable design and color sarouk. I would ask for more photos. Appears to be 1940's-50s. Outstanding design execution, but could have some lower pile. it appears to have a tag on it. Can you ask them what it says, why they're selling and how they plan to ship?


OMG really? I am such a dunce. I already mailed them and pasted it. Pls look at their feedback, Pro, it is way scary stuff. And if this is so wut they say, how can U explain the price?????????????

I just put the images in my HDD and will now blow them all up to the max. That is what I do now.

I do see the wefts are blue like I now remember mine were. But I thought they were all blue. I now know most are white. So only Saoruks have this blue? Why are they blue?
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#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:36:05 PM(UTC)
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Sarouks are often blue, not always. That was an okay email. It actualy could be as old as 30's now that I look at the back more carefully. I'm going to check the feedback. I noticed off that bat it doesn't look good, but let me take a looksee
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#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:42:34 PM(UTC)
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A lot of them have to do with the condition that had not been described. It would be a risk, but providing it looks like a good candidate after some questions, I would go from there. With something like this, I believe PayPal will cover you but it may be a lot of paper work. This kind of feedback should be factored into the offer price.
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#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:49:29 PM(UTC)
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Ok first, this wreaks havoc with my internal vision so bear with me, Pro. Tt is not red enuff, plus the red is blue red; so much detail and so much blue, and so much PALE. But I see other strangeness and will upload. I blew them up more, but past 200% wiht these, you loose detail.

Note: I can often enlarge images to 600% and retain some clarity. Depending on the resolution of the camera the image was made with. these could only sustain 200%. But that helped. I see strange issues with border. Inconsistency and deficits at many junctures WITHIN THE MAIN BORDERS. Can you pls look at the border in this imager I have enlarged and circled parts of? I would be most grateful.

Next, I have never seen a sarouk with this level of geometric in its borders...or is that weave in the beige pats of the border's field???. Saw tooth in a guard stripe, yes, this, no. Are we sure this is Persian? An actual Sarouk? Cause I dunno. But I asked.

Anything to postpone answering poor Mitch's email, boy.
Jilly attached the following image(s):
0a09_1.JPG
0d02_1.JPG
1900_1.JPG
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#10 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:00:57 PM(UTC)
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Ok I am afraid 2 get excited. And I must clear my head cause this don fit my ideal Sarouk Vision.....based on two rugs, but still......

Now, I blew up image of back and those geometrics I saw are there, I circled the area. also we can see the "catching" of the ends as mentioned. I circled in black. If that....is "catching" I could do it in my sleep. Don look very secure or professional to me, boy.

Are you sure any vintage Sarouk had those geometrics???????
Jilly attached the following image(s):
156d_1.JPG
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#11 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:04:11 PM(UTC)
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It appears to be persian sarouk to my eye. I think the different border design which is somewhat geometric may be indicative of this being a Sarouk produced for European taste and market demand rather than american. that is, my guess would be this piece probably was exported from Iran to somewhere in Europe, used there, then eventually/somehow sent to the American market. Doesn't make it any more rare, it's just a slightly more uncommon design although it could have been a direct import to US. The knots are slightly different as are the design elements, but it's tough to say without feeling in person and with low res images.
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#12 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:04:53 PM(UTC)
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Black circle on the top is the overcasting. That's to keep the ends from losing knots. If both ends are intact that's good.
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#13 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:14:23 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
It appears to be persian sarouk to my eye. I think the different border design which is somewhat geometric may be indicative of this being a Sarouk produced for European taste and market demand rather than american. that is, my guess would be this piece probably was exported from Iran to somewhere in Europe, used there, then eventually/somehow sent to the American market. Doesn't make it any more rare, it's just a slightly more uncommon design although it could have been a direct import to US. The knots are slightly different as are the design elements, but it's tough to say without feeling in person and with low res images.


Wow, really!? My eye is so uneducated and so pedestrian!!!!! I think Sarouk, I see what I see. tho I lluv what I see in my head based on two rugs. But, Pro.....if this is so special, how do we epplain the asking price??????
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#14 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:16:24 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
Black circle on the top is the overcasting. That's to keep the ends from losing knots. If both ends are intact that's good.

No, I knew what the catching they mentioned was....cause now, I have learned that. I just did not think it was that crudely done is all.

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#15 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:26:21 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
It appears to be persian sarouk to my eye. I think the different border design which is somewhat geometric may be indicative of this being a Sarouk produced for European taste and market demand rather than american. that is, my guess would be this piece probably was exported from Iran to somewhere in Europe, used there, then eventually/somehow sent to the American market. Doesn't make it any more rare, it's just a slightly more uncommon design although it could have been a direct import to US. The knots are slightly different as are the design elements, but it's tough to say without feeling in person and with low res images.


I think you should go sleep. I feel guilty U R up. I mean it. I am in midst of mania so I am always up now.

Very interesting comments above!
U sure you are not so sophisticated that re the conventional Sarouks of this era you have come to distain them and are drawn to this cause it is an exception to those and so, uncommon? Is this really a good design? I know wut U BRING and would never insult any of it, WHO COULD???? I am just little confused and IN RUG OVERLOAD.....AND THIS VIOLATES MY VISION WHICH, pehaps is IN ZOYGOTE STAGE.

Forget I can no longer avoid dealing with that email from poor, delusional Mitch who actually thinks I want that poor rug and actually thinks it is worth something.
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#16 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:32:11 PM(UTC)
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Wut up with the inconsistencies & gaps in the border design I circled?????? (I hope U R asleep now; I am being terrible pest, boy.)

Can I hire someone to answer that email form Mitch? Kidding. I do everything myself to the extent I can manage.
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#17 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:36:46 PM(UTC)
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Jilly I don't sleep & love rugs. re-mitch, delusional to say the least.

Per rug - it's nice. It has wear, it has been painted, it has some halo effect, it's from a seller that doesn't have great feedback... but I think it's a nice design despite the border and geometric features. The rug does speak loud, but the images are of low grade. Red Rugs always photograph better in sunlight from my experience.

It is worth investigating, although it's a lower price point probably because of conditional issues, and the guy probably got it very cheap. Also, when I see best offer from a seller like this, I think knock off a good percentage... So I don't see the 13xx price tag, I see a lot less... we will see
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#18 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:38:23 PM(UTC)
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it may be that the border was painted too. worth asking about. don't forget, it is hand knotted
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#19 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:47:05 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
Jilly I don't sleep & love rugs. re-mitch, delusional to say the least.

Per rug - it's nice. It has wear, it has been painted, it has some halo effect, it's from a seller that doesn't have great feedback... but I think it's a nice design despite the border and geometric features. The rug does speak loud, but the images are of low grade. Red Rugs always photograph better in sunlight from my experience.

It is worth investigating, although it's a lower price point probably because of conditional issues, and the guy probably got it very cheap. Also, when I see best offer from a seller like this, I think knock off a good percentage... So I don't see the 13xx price tag, I see a lot less... we will see


I want you to sleep and I win, OK? I do the no sleep for ALL of Manhattan. I was OFFICIALLY APPOINTED.

that is sooo interesting re photographing red rugs. It si well known in the orchid growing international subculture that red orchids blooms almost impossible to photograph with fidelity! Even for Charles Marden Fitch, the best in the world. There are whole books written on just this. I did really well with my old Minolta 700X with a marco lens. I will never get rid of that camera tho I ight never use it again. . I never used it on manual with its little computer. Not once. Only thing with film or slides is you gotta wait for developing. Now, I am addicted to immediate.

You would THINK, some of these rug vendors would invest in a high end SLR digital!!!! They go for around 1k and far above that, but some have 20mpS and all kinds of lenses you can buy. Nikon makes good ones at that level.

Well I am little excited. I will follow up for sure. Sometimes, just the essence of an email response speaks volumes about he or she who sent it.
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#20 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:50:51 PM(UTC)
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I don see the halos. I wanna see them. How many Hail Marys do I gotta say to see these?
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#21 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:02:09 PM(UTC)
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small but they're there.
RugPro attached the following image(s):
halo2.jpg
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#22 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:03:02 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
it may be that the border was painted too. worth asking about. don't forget, it is hand knotted


So you are saying that the dark CURVILINEAR accents were painted and they missed some? That.....is a very smart postulation. I do not mind anomalies and also like asymmetry whch my Amy Winehouse rug has bigtime like all Luri designs do.....I liked that rug I posted recently, cause I found some in the design. Then I read and posted they were purposeful cause only God is perfect and the artisans did not wanna diss God in the rendering of thes lovely but not Godlike rugs.

But what you came up with on this...I never would have in a million centuries. And it may well be right!!!!! Formidable!!!!!!
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#23 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:06:10 PM(UTC)
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How the heck did you sharpen those photos so well?!? when I took that one into photo edit I couldnt get it that clear with the sharpening tool.

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#24 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:12:14 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
small but they're there.


Small is just fine.mY rug had a coupla lower than the rest areas....but you hadda get down and look closely to see them.. THE HUGE sarouk in our livingroom had none at all. I had no clue that was some big deal. Let me try to blow this up.

Soon I will answer that email. But not right this second. I feel moved to wake him up. For HIS sake. But that will require voluminous email cause the "ice' is very, very thin.

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#25 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:13:33 PM(UTC)
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lol, it's not worth it. how close was that rug to yours?
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#26 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:19:53 PM(UTC)
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#27 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:25:10 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
How the heck did you sharpen those photos so well?!? when I took that one into photo edit I couldnt get it that clear with the sharpening tool.

ps. I liked the testimonials and orchid renditions...


O! Thanks SO MUCH ON THE LATTER!

I find too many humans waste too many minutes genuflecting before overly engineered, couunter-intutive, Less Than software. I do not even use my (not photoshop) photo software. I just right click on the image, and in the drop down menu, go to "open with" and choose MS PAINT.

Bingo, it opens in MS Paint.

Then, I just go to the toolbar in Paint>image>stretch/skew, and in the horizontal and vertical fields enter THE SAME percentage, as U wanna maintain the proportions. This time I started with 200%....and when I tried higher, I lost too much clarity.

You can also do (paint toolbar) "view." That opens new interface in which you can choose pre programmed percentages up to 800%!!!!

I did all those Jillypapers using only MS PAINT. Included at no extra cost in every MS OS from W95 on, and they never changed it cause it ain't broke.. Not much U can't do with it; people think it's for infants. It is not. Only those who think like infants think that.

It aint the brush, its the human who employs the brush and who is willing to explore the real potential of the brush. Wut?
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#28 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:41:01 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
This one has similar characteristics in the border

It also seems to have had a luster wash


Ok first....this vendor says they did nothing but basic washing. I do not see it gleaming. I see NO LUSTER. I siill don kow what luster wash is, but I know it's chicanery. Pls tell me why you think it has this luster wash? Mine was washed by two humans with plain soap and water on the floor of the place on Madison ave. Or maybe it was Lexington. I can't remember. but it was not on the street leve, U hadd take elevator up.. I saw part of the washing.

Next, I never saw that big Sarouk before1! It reminds me of our huge one.....cept our huge one was deeper red and it had classic navy field in the borders and no pale blue. It had vibrant jewel tone accent colors. Golds, turquoise, etc. Way too much for my apartment livingroom, The one I kept was perfect.

But that is lovely Sarouk, I think. Probably worth close to what they wanted for it. And unusual but still classic.
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#29 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:51:26 PM(UTC)
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appears a very high sheen. Sometimes they call it a lemon wash. Basically gives the wool a higher luster often with the use of chemicals. Not uncommon for some cleaners to do this to emphasis the "clean" new, fresh appearance. it works best on rugs that already have good wool. Very Shiny
RugPro attached the following image(s):
high luster.jpg
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#30 Posted : Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:05:27 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
lol, it's not worth it. how close was that rug to yours?


U mean the delusional rug? hahahah. Almost no similarities in the ways that matter. NOT IN PERSON. It was limp, the field detials more formal and less crisp and kinda melting into the field....and the condition bore no relationship at all to either my rug or any rug I would allow in here......my emotional well being is too important to me. I feel BAD EOUGH FOR THE WHOLE WORLD, to have some RUG I PITY. I use the word lifeforce a lot. It is not an unfathomable element. This thing had none at all owing to many factors spanning many decades.

Truly if someone GAVE me the rug, I would sell it for anything the first person who offered something would offer. I would never live with it.

This current form the garbage rug is eroding.....cause it unimaginably ugly......and not in fierce, fabulous way, ugly, like the Winehouse rug which has life. I wanna see that rug. But at least the garbage rug it is not dying, has not know misery and abuse.

The rug appeared to have endured terrible tribulations in its life and it had critical mass defeatism. I am not kidding. First second I saw it, I did not want it, and felt pity for it....and that was before all the condition issues were seen closeup. It was wiggly....meaning it did not even have the substance to lay flat and not because of its trapezoid issue. It was limp. And thin. Mine had substance and density and health. It would never have not lain llat in any way on any surface. For me, rugs do not need to be perect...but they should have pile and health and substance. If they don't, U should velcro them to the ceiling. lol

Now....I blew up yr last marked with the halo image. I think I see it but not sure. I will upload. I just looked at it uploaded. I believe U are sayin that the kinda orange color around the details is where they missed it when painting? Believe it or not, I would prefer the red I now get is painted... to be less blue-red and more orange-red!!!
Jilly attached the following image(s):
halo2.jpg
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