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Naomi2003 Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:32:36 PM(UTC)
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I am a virgin rug-buyer and have fallen in love with a rug I found in a store in Doha, Qatar. It sounds like a great deal to a novice, so I wanted to get some better information before I jump in. This is the first I've looked at your site, so I haven't asked many specific questions of the dealers yet, but this is what I know after 5 visits...

--Brand new 100% Kashmir silk pile and silk foundation
--100% hand-knotted
--Vegetable dye
--5x8
--I believe it's just over 200 KPSI
--One of the dealers told me it was Katterras (sp) design or made by that family, another dealer said it's Four Seasons (but as you can see from the picture...not like most Four Season designs)

I haven't done any of the tests to see if it's really silk or not. They did a "water test" on it by throwing water on it--it pilled up and soaked in only after about 10 minutes. The colors are amazing and vary greatly depending on angle. It also feels amazing (like I said, virgin rug buyer here!)

They have come down to $2600 after starting at $3200. What other questions should I be asking? Is this a good deal?

Thanks in advance!

Naomi2003 attached the following image(s):
IMG_0504 (Medium).JPG
IMG_0505 (Medium).JPG
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:10:16 PM(UTC)
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Hello and welcome to the forum.

Really awesome rug. Don't know about the dyes, it's common for most any dealer to call them veggie, but sometimes only a small percentage is actual natural if that.


Design is not garden design really, but it is pretty. Looks like a repeating rug motif. I do not know the name myself.

The burn test is really the most productive measure, the water silk doesnt show much. If you feel comfortable, and they're okay, Pull a single knot from the back of the rug. Also cut a sample from the fringe. I know it sounds stupid, but its worth doing. You can't trust anybody about this until you see it for yourself and they of all people should understand this and be confident with their goods.

What is the country of origin for the rug? Indian Kashmir, Iranian Qum?

Remove a Knot
http://www.rugrag.com/po...-do-I-Remove-a-Knot.aspx


Burn Test
http://www.rugrag.com/post/Fibers.aspx


Info On KPSI
http://www.rugrag.com/post/What-is-KPSI--Its-not-always-the-Knot-that-Counts!.aspx


Find out how the rug will be sent: make sure everything $$$ is included. Check import taxes, tariffs, duties that may apply.

After providing the above information, I can give additional tips

Where are you located?
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Naomi2003 Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:20:21 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the quick reply!

I'm actually located in Doha right now, so I would purchase the rug direct and mail it back home through US Postal office (from the military base)--no issues with taxes, customs, etc.

I can either email or go back this weekend and ask more specific questions...once I know what to ask, so I can find out about exact country of origin, see if they'll let me remove a knot and get more/better pictures (including one to ID KPSI). I've talked with several different dealers so I'm concerned about the consistency in the information, but on my last visit, I talked with the owner who gave me his email address. I'll email him and ask specific questions regarding it if you can provide some more advice on what I should be asking...

Thanks again--you guys are really great!
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RugPro Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:46:44 PM(UTC)
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Great, looking forward to the KPSI picture. I missed that you said it was a Kashmir, this is in fact India. Just confirm with them. If it's a rug you love and price does not matter, go for it. Otherwise, here's what I think would be prudent

These are the exact photographs we need, numbers 1 through and including 4. If the rug is 100% new, I'm not going to run you through the whole used rug process. If you post photos of a quarter on the back of the knots, I'll count them for you. Sometimes people mistake yarn ply for two + knots.

Here's a quick checklist. This may be added to. Not all are important or essential, but all will help

* Find out if the pile of the rug is silk with burn test
* Find out what the Foundation (the fringe) is made of. If they claim silk, try burn test. Many Kashmir Rugs have cotton foundation which are less of an investment. I can't tell from the photo for sure, but it appears as thought it *may* be cotton
* Get Photographs 1-4
* In addition to the photographs, I would like to see a corner shot from the front of the rug to evaluate design execution, as well as a small area in the field.
* confirm country of origin is India.

While not all photographs are integral, they will help a tremendous amount to perhaps give leverage when negotiating if necessary


Personally, I never advise people purchase overseas for many reasons.

If you are absolutely set on it, I can say the rug looks awesome. It's a design I would consider for purchase myself because to me it is very beautiful. HOWEVER, it is also a design which is really more conducive to overseas market, not the US. Resale may not be so easy if you decide it's not the rug for you down the road. That being said, resale could be difficult despite the colors appearing to be good.


Here are some questions I have for you. Not to confront your purchase, just want to get an idea.

1. Is your intention of purchase to collect, invest, enjoy, display or use?
2. Would you be prepared insure the rug for the full amount when shipping?
3. How exactly did the negotiating go down, how many back and forth times and what were some of the increments?
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Naomi2003 Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:50:20 PM(UTC)
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I went back to the rug shop yesterday to get the pictures and ask more questions.

They had NO problem with the burn tests (in fact, once I said I wanted to test for real silk, he grabbed a scissors and lighter right away). Both the pile and the foundation burned exactly like your site said it would if it were real.

To answer your questions (and I don't mind the questions at all):
1) I intend to purchase this rug to enjoy and use. I first went into the store with a friend and no intentions of buying a rug and I just fell in love with this one...if I buy it, I plan to put it on the floor (in a low-traffic area) and walk on it and sit on it and enjoy it's beauty for years to come.
2) When shipping, I am prepared to insure it for the full amount that I pay for it
3) Negotiating: Since I didn't know anything about rugs and what they're worth, I didn't ever really give any counter offers--mostly just said the price was too much for me. The first time I went in, they said the rug was $3200 (but insist it's worth MUCH more in the US). I said that the price was too high and by time we had left the first time, they were down to $2900. When I came back the second time, they held fast with the $2900 price. The third time I came back, they offered $2600. The next time I went back, they no longer wanted to give me that price (and tried to tell me it was now a different-sized rug) and went back up to $3000 (I was working with a few different salesmen). When I went back yesterday and I proved with a photograph it was the same rug, they brought it back to $2600.

Here are the photographs:
File Attachment(s):
Rug 149.JPG (2,954kb) downloaded 9 time(s).
Rug 148.JPG (3,081kb) downloaded 8 time(s).
Rug 142.JPG (3,147kb) downloaded 6 time(s).
Rug 134.JPG (3,023kb) downloaded 7 time(s).
Rug 140.JPG (3,216kb) downloaded 11 time(s).
Rug 145.JPG (2,961kb) downloaded 7 time(s).
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RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:29:45 PM(UTC)
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Great images. I can't say whether or not it's silk foundation from the photos, but the pile appears as though it could very well be. It's a fun carpet, nice design. A good example of an Indian Kashmir. Given both pile and foundation are silk, and provided the rug is in new condition with no problems, I think 5x8 for $2600 true silk on silk kashmir with ~400 KPSI would be considered fair "retail" market value or somewhat below a fair retail market value from my experience. I would suggest multiple input from other experts, this is just my angle.

Please post images of it on your floor when it arrives :)
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Guest
#7 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:37:26 PM(UTC)
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Wow. If I may throw my few cents in here;

1) RugPro is giving you data I think you will get nowhere else.

2) This rug is not my style, it has little or no estrogen, and even I think it's is stunning. Complex, atypical colors, unexpected colors & detail in the borders, and it all WORKS. Small wonder you fell in love!

3) I envy you have endured this rug game-tapdance without imploding. If you are military, did you learn that there? Tiny joke.

4) My feeling is, this is a new rug. The fringes and their knotting look new to me. Not washed....NEW. Recently made.
4a) If the above is accurate, how would that impact value? I would think a lot. Pro will hopefully address this.

5) My next take is they saw a live one in love, not just lust. It's mammalstuff.
5a) Keeping in mind I am the most messed up rug hunting human in any hemisphere....I can't negotiate a cogent thought for myself.....were I you, and if you can afford it.....I might ofer them 2050 and tell them THAT is really MORE than your budget can bear.

6) To what degree have you raise the age of the rug issue with them?

7) Very, very smart of you to have asked around!!! I would do more of that....including re these peoples' reputation!

8) I sure hope you get it. RugPro already knows you will, lol. But even more, I sure hope you don't pay lots more than you should to get it. Even tho you clearly adore the rug, and even if you can swing it, nothing justifies exploitation. but if Pro says it is worth what it is, then it is worth what it is.
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RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:50:59 PM(UTC)
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Age, knotting and design execution is all typical of a 30 year old to new Kashmir Indian weaving as Jilly noted. This here is an unusual yarn ply Kashmir vs. silk qum

I'm glad you brought this to the forum. I think its a cool rug. You don't see too many of this design. Let us know if you have any other questions.
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Guest
#9 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:56:52 PM(UTC)
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Pls use this link:
http://www.faraghancarpet.com/profile.htm

"We are often called as pioneer of silk carpets from kashmir."

I see none as special as yours, but think they render this genre well, and some are silk/silk.....more, silk/cotton. Why not email them re the prices of some of these????

It might give you some perspective, and you would have nothing to loose, yes?
_________________________________________________

http://stores.ebay.com/MogulGallery
_______________________________________________

http://mayurint.tradeind...Kashmir-Silk-Carpet.html
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RugPro Offline
#10 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:14:34 PM(UTC)
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Those are some good links Jilly, worth looking into.

Naomi it's worth noting that an all sales final I think you could considering negotiating lower if overseas and you don't mind taking the risk of losing it. If you like the rug, I really think this would be appropriate US retail or lower which is not bad. I have personally talked with several friends who comparatively speaking have paid uneccessarily more than the rug you've posted. I don't think it's a bad deal at all if the pile and foundation are silk. This came from a link jilly posted and researched diligently. Has a cotton foundation, can't tell what the pile is, Design execution is not as good as the one you shared with us, and knot count is a little lower. I don't think it speaks nearly the same as the rug you posted, but if you really wanted to play hardball, could be used as leverage if you really wanted to pull them down in price.
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#11 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:36:13 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
Those are some good links Jilly, worth looking into.

Naomi it's worth noting that an all sales final I think you could considering negotiating lower if overseas and you don't mind taking the risk of losing it. If you like the rug, I really think this would be appropriate US retail or lower which is not bad. I have personally talked with several friends who comparatively speaking have paid uneccessarily more than the rug you've posted. I don't think it's a bad deal at all if the pile and foundation are silk. This came from a link jilly posted and researched diligently. Has a cotton foundation, can't tell what the pile is, Design execution is not as good as the one you shared with us, and knot count is a little lower. I don't think it speaks nearly the same as the rug you posted, but if you really wanted to play hardball, could be used as leverage if you really wanted to pull them down in price.


Diligently=wrong. COMPULSIVELY=right. lol
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Guest
#12 Posted : Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:38:51 PM(UTC)
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RugPro wrote:
Age, knotting and design execution is all typical of a 30 year old to new Kashmir Indian weaving as Jilly noted. This here is an unusual yarn ply Kashmir vs. silk qum

I'm glad you brought this to the forum. I think its a cool rug. You don't see too many of this design. Let us know if you have any other questions.


I just came upon that From HERE! Fabulous as usual. U gotta breech the pile and see the twists. Wut?
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Kazak Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, January 26, 2009 3:27:10 PM(UTC)
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I have extensive experience with silk Kashmir carpets. I would guess that this is probably a cotton foundation with a silk pile. The other link for the ebay Kashmir gives you a good idea of what sort of range and prices there might be for an item like this. While that rug is a lower knot count, I think it's fair to say that this is an American retail price for the Qatar rug. It is not vegetable dye, and it is not more valuable in the US.

If you're buying a rug in Qatar, presumably from somebody who has direct manufacturing connections in India, why would you be willing to pay the same price as if you were purchasing it here in the USA. You might reconsider what you are willing to pay. The risks of loss, damage, possible customs duties, and, most of all, not being able to return the rug might outweigh a hasty purchase.

My guess... This rug could go for a lot less, especially if you let them know you are considering other rugs. Play a little hardball.
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#14 Posted : Monday, January 26, 2009 5:15:12 PM(UTC)
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Kazak wrote:
I have extensive experience with silk Kashmir carpets. I would guess that this is probably a cotton foundation with a silk pile. The other link for the ebay Kashmir gives you a good idea of what sort of range and prices there might be for an item like this. While that rug is a lower knot count, I think it's fair to say that this is an American retail price for the Qatar rug. It is not vegetable dye, and it is not more valuable in the US.

If you're buying a rug in Qatar, presumably from somebody who has direct manufacturing connections in India, why would you be willing to pay the same price as if you were purchasing it here in the USA. You might reconsider what you are willing to pay. The risks of loss, damage, possible customs duties, and, most of all, not being able to return the rug might outweigh a hasty purchase.

My guess... This rug could go for a lot less, especially if you let them know you are considering other rugs. Play a little hardball.


Hello Kazar,

Whoever you are, may God Bless You & the magic carpet you flew in on. This is such a lovely, profound guy over there, in love with that rug.....I, and I think, RugPro, sensed he was about to be had. This post is invaluable. I only hope he sees it in time!

We are sending you a Ferrari.

Jill
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