Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Log In | Register

Color on rear
netjim Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, April 19, 2008 2:31:20 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 173
Points: 528
Location: Florida
This is a Qashqai, approx 4' x 10' with a blue color on the rear. It seems to have a blue warp *and* weft. I don't recall ever seeing this blue color on a back but I have much to learn about true Persians. ;)
Anyone have thoughts?
3 photos include a piece of ordinary white paper for reference.
http://www.netjim.com/stuff/
Sponsor  
 

Love the Rug Rag Forums?

Register above, then purchase a monthly Forum Pass for Full Access

RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 4:02:05 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Dealers, Member

Joined: 2/9/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,285
Points: 6,103
Location: New York
Wow, great photos, and welcome to the board.

I'm not entirely sure why they do it, but you do see the warps and wefts of a color other than white sometimes. There are certain ways that you can actually confirm where the rug was made according the the assessment of such coloring practices. It seems like it would be much more in the benefit to the weaver to have a brighter, whiter colored warp to weave on. While I agree this is a little unusual that it would be dyed this blue-gray color, I think it's just by chance this lot of warps were dyed. What I wonder is if it is to make the back of the rug look a little better. In these types of rugs, often the back looks extremely stark because it's predominantly white with the warps and wefts showing through. Perhaps the coloring of the back is to offset this appearance somewhat.

Which seller was this?
netjim Offline
#3 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 4:42:30 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 173
Points: 528
Location: Florida
One of only a few I purchased thru e-bay last summer, this is from a place in Miami called Pakobel. They apparently are only selling on-line now and have a lot on e-bay. (My first venture into "old" rugs.) BTW I paid about $160 including shipping and it was said to be approx 40 yrs old. (another subject....just how many rugs are there that are 40 years old ? ) lol
A related aside....
4 manufacturer's reps have seen it and each, independently, judged it to be 60 - 80 years old and none had seen this light blue backing before either but, even with many years in the business, these guys are *mostly* representing machine made and tufted goods. (Although one of them certainly has good hand-made knowledge.)
KrowGyrl Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:12:39 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 404
Points: 1,235
Location: Yonkers, NY
(another subject....just how many rugs are there that are 40 years old ?>>>>>

LOL .... I have bought a lot from Pakobel too. And I too wonder, as with other sellers, how all the rugs are exactly these standard ages in the semi-antique range. I take it with a bowl of salt.
RugPro Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44:07 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Dealers, Member

Joined: 2/9/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,285
Points: 6,103
Location: New York
I have seen Pakobel on ebay for sure. I wonder what it appraises for on the appraisal tool. I would say it's 40 years old if I had to make a guess. You are in the rug business yourself? do you have a retail shop?
netjim Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:09:42 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 173
Points: 528
Location: Florida
Yes, in the business... well, mostly machine mades and tufted but trying hard to get some "real" rugs added to the mix. Now up to 16 or 18 knotteds and a dozen or so hand woven (out of about 800 so obviously just a bare start) I do get to do most of the buying now so that will improve a little at a time. :)

At least the owner values this part of the store and has even started a separate ad campaign (which works!)

[post edited to remove links to my site(s) - not here for self-promotion.]
KrowGyrl Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:22:12 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 404
Points: 1,235
Location: Yonkers, NY
Good looking sites Jim. I don't mind seeing them as I like to see all aspects of the business and what others are up to. I noticed your paragraphs on the leather strips. We were talking about that a few days ago on here. I have two with the strips myself.
netjim Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:26:28 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 173
Points: 528
Location: Florida
ooo, I had forgotten about that. I probably need to go back to re-address that. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of folks who try to portray that as seconds. Which, of course, may or may not be true, but that was the general idea I was given a couple of years ago.
RugPro Offline
#9 Posted : Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:33:58 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Dealers, Member

Joined: 2/9/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,285
Points: 6,103
Location: New York
Jim you said you have a write up on these straps? I wonder what colors you have been finding people to like down in Florida for the rugs.
netjim Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:56:25 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 173
Points: 528
Location: Florida
An addendum....

A couple of days ago a rug wholesaler came by. He had quite a few antiques and that isn't my market. But, while in the store he saw the runner we discussed earlier in this thread. He immediately called it a Hamadan (not Qashqai as previously identified)
Well I sure can't argue any of it. He sounded very knowledgeable but the original source seems so also. Think
One thing he said is that this has cotton foundation and the Qashqai use wool for foundation. (well maybe that was "used" since he also agreed it is 1940s)

Any thoughts? (...lesson for an almost novice?...)
It's the second one shown at http://www.netjim.com/stuff/

RugPro Offline
#11 Posted : Friday, October 17, 2008 9:58:42 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Dealers, Member

Joined: 2/9/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,285
Points: 6,103
Location: New York
I'll have to look into this a little more because I am just not certain on what this rug is.

I'm not saying this is Qashqai, because I do not believe it is. What I do know is that Qashqai are not always wool pile with wool foundation. Many older ones are, however, most newer Qashqai rugs are wool pile, with cotton foundation. I personally own a Qashqai from the 1960's early 70s that has a cotton foundation. Gabbeh design rugs woven by the Qashqai are also woven on cotton foundation. These are made by nomadic weavers, often migrating several hundred miles every year back and forth. I do not think this is Qashqai, but the statement that Qashqai rugs are wool foundation is incorrect.

It seems inevitably, when some rug dealers cannot isolate origin, they call assign it the name Hamadan because Hamadan covers such a broad, large area of Iran. While it may be the case that this rug is a Hamadan, I'm just not certain, but it's probably a decent guess. The design would say it could be, but looking at the back of the rug tells a much different story: What I can say is that hamadan often has single weft weaving. Simplified answer to what this means, the appearance of knots on the back of the rug. They will be oriented in almost a diagonal fashion, seemingly alternating columns of knots. This rug does not exhibit this orientation, not to say there's no possibility this is a Hamadan, it could very well be.

I'll do more research and get back to you
netjim Offline
#12 Posted : Friday, October 17, 2008 10:56:05 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 173
Points: 528
Location: Florida
Thanks!
This already confirms a couple of my suspicions.
RugPro Offline
#13 Posted : Sunday, October 19, 2008 8:50:20 AM(UTC)
Rank: Administration

Groups: Administration, Dealers, Member

Joined: 2/9/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,285
Points: 6,103
Location: New York
Nice new avatar, is this your showroom?
netjim Offline
#14 Posted : Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:47:43 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 4/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 173
Points: 528
Location: Florida
My showroom? No but I can dream a little eh? (this was in AmericasMart in Atlanta)
Actually, I have an idea for an avatar but I want to photograph it on a rug and haven't seen one in person yet. I just don't get to see all that many Turkish pieces except the common Oushaks. (It's the hand on hip motif.)
I'll find one.
Anxious
BarryOC Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, November 10, 2008 12:04:14 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Dealers, Member

Joined: 11/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 4
Points: 15
Location: Traveling
Hi,
The second one in that link has two shots of weft between each row of knots so that rules out Hamadan so I agree with you. I noticed that the two wefts one is sinuous (it zigzags around warps) and the other is rigid i.e. very straight. It is like a Bijar but obviously not Bijar. I used to see Khorasan village rugs like that so it may be a low-end Khorasan rug.
Best wishes,
Barry O'Connell
Users browsing this topic
Guest (4)
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF | YAF © 2003-2010, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.131 seconds.