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Nain rug - photos for knot pulling
ukwildcat Offline
#1 Posted : Thursday, September 4, 2014 8:25:27 PM(UTC)
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I'm going to post results from the knot pulling test on my original thread but I wanted to start a new thread for the purpose of helping me pick a knot, make sure I'm getting a correct one and that I'm not hurting the rug.

Here are 2 photos of an area that I'm guessing is a good place to pull one. The more close-up photo also shows what appears to be a white knot that is somewhat already out.

Do any of you think that the knot that is somewhat already out is probably a silk one that I could use?....or do you think it's a wool one just light in color?

Can anyone suggest a knot in these photos if the one that's partially out won't work?

Also, I've read the instructions about using a large, strong needle to do the extraction...but...I kind of noticed that the knots were small when I did the quarter photo awhile back but I'm telling you that now that I'm trying to pick one to pull; these knots are really small and really dense - I hope I don't make a big mess of this.

Also, I've included a photo of the signature from the back; thought it looked interesting and never actually paid attention to it from the back.

So, Anybody got any thought, ideas or suggestions at this point....??

Thanks.

File Attachment(s):
IMG_2109.JPG (2,451kb) downloaded 35 time(s).
IMG_2110.JPG (1,663kb) downloaded 28 time(s).
IMG_2111.JPG (2,087kb) downloaded 20 time(s).
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Sharafi & Co Offline
#2 Posted : Friday, September 5, 2014 5:11:53 AM(UTC)
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If you are not confident that you can pull a knot out then don't do it. Just try and isolate a strand of silk from the front and cut it off if you find that easier. Personally I think you will find that it is real silk.
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ukwildcat Offline
#3 Posted : Friday, September 5, 2014 6:50:57 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for your response.

If you zoom in on the close up photo and view the knot that is loose (I'm guessing it's a knot but I guess could be part of foundation as I don't really know the difference)....do you think this part that's loose is silk? ...if so, it would be easy for me to cut it even with the rug and it would be a pretty good sized piece.

Any other things you note from these photos worth mentioning?

Thanks again for your help.
Sharafi & Co Offline
#4 Posted : Friday, September 5, 2014 6:59:20 AM(UTC)
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From the photos one of the strands appears to be shinier than the other two and that should be the silk one. If you look at where it from the front and is in the same line as the rest of the silk in the pattern then that would confirm it further.
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ukwildcat Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, September 10, 2014 2:07:20 PM(UTC)
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OK...thanks for your patience; it took a while for me get back to my rug stuff.....anyway, my wife has the super nose in the family and so I used a razor blade and sliced off the sort of frayed knot that was in the photo attached to this thread (no pun intended) and we burned it on a piece of aluminum foil and even though it was a small puff, she said it smelled a bit like burning hair...I'm guessing that's indicative of silk...I will post this on my original thread and we'll back to whatever comes next....thanks.
Sharafi & Co Offline
#6 Posted : Wednesday, September 10, 2014 2:41:51 PM(UTC)
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That to me sounds like natural fibre no whether that was wool or silk I can't tell. If the piece you burnt was of different texture to the wool then I would say its silk. But the residue should have been powdery rather than a resin.
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ukwildcat Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, September 10, 2014 2:56:40 PM(UTC)
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I wouldn't call what was left a resin or a powder; a small part of it went really quick and I don't think it left much of anything...the other part just sort of charred and wouldn't burn...

I was hoping that I wouldn't have to pull a knot but I guess that's what the next step will be...I'll try to document it a little better.

Thanks.
ukwildcat Offline
#8 Posted : Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:26:58 PM(UTC)
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See new photo of "white" area with red pencil pointing in the middle of the area....does this look like a good spot to pull what is hopefully a silk knot?...or does this look like an ivory wool...or what do you think....?

Also, I've added two photos with a ruler; length and width....any guesses as to the knot per inch count...?

Thanks
File Attachment(s):
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IMG_2117.JPG (1,453kb) downloaded 6 time(s).
Sharafi & Co Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, September 11, 2014 3:19:24 AM(UTC)
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Where your pen is pointing is the wool. If you look at the same photo you will see lines of shinier textile, which is also highlights and that should be the silk.

For knots per square inch if you want to be precise you count the number of knots in horizontal direction for 1 inch and then vertical and multiply them together and that gives you knots per square inch. To be precise you do this at the edge of the carpet and then centre and take an average. However, personally I do not think for vintage carpets of this sort that adds much to it. I think it is a 6la Nain and that tells the story and KPSI does not add much to it. However, for very fine pieces or new pieces it is a different story.
First Floor, unit 9
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www.sharafiandco.com
ukwildcat Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, September 11, 2014 6:00:27 PM(UTC)
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OK, thanks. Here's another photo; what do you think of the fine white line between the two dark areas?

Also, I got down close with a high intensity light; looking at the back and the front. I think the rug must be pretty dirty; I've never had it cleaned and have had it for nearly 30 years and it's been on the floor in low traffic areas for all of that but about 5 years when it was in storage. Anyway, there are white outline areas on the top that look shiny at an oblique angle but straight down just look like a dull ivory. I've tried to match up some of those on top with the bottom side; but on the bottom side, they look like the big area that I showed the first time with the pencil. I'm probably a bit confused but am enjoying this learning experience.

What do you think of the new photo with the pencil point?

Thanks.
File Attachment(s):
IMG_2118.JPG (1,966kb) downloaded 11 time(s).
Sharafi & Co Offline
#11 Posted : Friday, September 12, 2014 12:33:11 AM(UTC)
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That seems to be the right one
First Floor, unit 9
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www.sharafiandco.com
ukwildcat Offline
#12 Posted : Sunday, September 14, 2014 6:07:01 PM(UTC)
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OK...I pulled one..!!! It wasn't so bad; I did go and buy an extra large needle....it first came out in a few strands that kind of literally blew away, just disappeared. The next time I guess I got the all or most of the knot because I had enough to kind of form it into a sort of spherical tuft of sorts. Anyway, since it was white, I put it on a dark background and thought it would show up best on photo. After I put the gas lighter to it, it quickly kind of curled up. It didn't really leave the "powder" like you described but you can look at what left in the attached photo.

I'm not sure what I'm looking for and since it really didn't turn into what I thought you described as a powder, I decided to add a control to this little experiment. In the photo attached, there are two masses of leftovers from burning with the lighter. The smaller one on the right is the knot that I pulled from my rug. The larger one on the left side of the photo is the remains after I burnt a larger mass that I cut from one of my wife's 100% silk scarfs (I don't think she's reading this forum but just in case....shhhhh). Both of the burnt in the same manner and reduced in size the same fashion and essentially have left the same residue. So, I guess if the rug is made of faux silk then my wife's scarf is also (which these days I guess that's possible as well).

Are you all able to zoom in on the residue and give an opinion?....do I need to try something else...?

Thanks
ukwildcat attached the following image(s):
IMG_2126.JPG
ukwildcat Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 10:42:34 AM(UTC)
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This morning when I looked at the remains of my knot burning, it seemed that some of it disappeared over the night. I scraped off what was left onto a sheet of white paper (see photo attached). It seemed a bit crispy and you can see some of the black specks around the main piece that fell off. I might also point out yesterday that when I burned it, it sort of gave me the appearance of the branch of a tree with little black balls on the end of the branches.

So, what do you all think...?...silk or some substitute? ....what else do we need to do..?

Thanks.....
ukwildcat attached the following image(s):
IMG_2127.JPG
RugPro Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 4:33:14 PM(UTC)
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In the future it helps to see the same piece one end burned, the other not. This way the same fiber may be seen in before and after. Based on these images it would appear this could be wool or silk, they sometimes have similar burn characteristics, and I am unsure as to what it originally looked like since there was confusion on the original sample being pulled.
ukwildcat Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 5:29:46 PM(UTC)
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Ok, thanks. It's possible there was another fiber in with it I think.

I would have been happy to have burnt one end but I didn't know to do that. I'll pull another knot and do as you suggest. Could I ask at this point for any other suggestions on how to pull, how to burn, what kind of background do you want in the photo (white or black), would you prefer a video or still shots, maybe before and after....this is all educational for me and I guess other readers....how do I present this so that you experts get the info that you need....??

Thanks again.
RugPro Offline
#16 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 5:56:07 PM(UTC)
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First, identify the suspected silk knot on the back.

Then extract as best you can with a needle to loosen one end.

Twist the loose end in between your fingers to make it stronger, then try to pull it out.

If you cannot do it with your fingers, you can try needle nose pliers - clamp the silk, then roll the pliers clockwise to wrap it around to pull out. Using this technique is better than trying to yank it out.

You should then have your sample.

Hold it in some tweesers, and burn one end

Take photo and upload.
ukwildcat Offline
#17 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 6:09:29 PM(UTC)
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Ah, perfect....thank you..!!! Yes, I was trying to pull hard but wasn't sure how hard and I wasn't sure how much was supposed to come out.....
ukwildcat Offline
#18 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 7:10:12 PM(UTC)
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Ok, I pulled another knot....after digging out one end with the needle, I tried the twisting and pulling with 2 different sets of pliers but both kept slipping off of it...pulled firmly with my fingers but fine threads kept coming out of the knot instead of a large piece...ended up digging more with the needle and pulled a "bigger" first end out and then the rest of the knot came out with a firm steady pull...got a much larger mass than the first time....it was still quite "frayed" from the pulling...I moistened it a bit and did a clockwise twist and made it much thinner and it collected together...this burned about the same way as the first smaller knot material did except this one seemed to end up in one bigger black ball/knot and the first one had a lot of little ones.

Here's photos and they are named as to what they are.....

Thanks....
File Attachment(s):
Nain knot before burning.JPG (2,611kb) downloaded 3 time(s).
ukwildcat attached the following image(s):
Nain knot after burning one end white backgrnd.JPG
Nain knot after brning one end side view.JPG
ukwildcat Offline
#19 Posted : Monday, September 15, 2014 9:21:14 PM(UTC)
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Here is a more clear photo that let's you zoom in better....but...I dropped the camera trying to hover over it and broke off the blackend tip....but it's still more clear that some of the other ones.....
ukwildcat attached the following image(s):
Nain knot more clear.JPG
RugPro Offline
#20 Posted : Tuesday, September 16, 2014 5:27:27 PM(UTC)
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These are excellent photos. Based on what is seen, the images are consistent with how burned silk would appear.

Nain rugs are heavily technical when it comes to qualitative measures, so seeing the rug in person is the best way to really evaluate. From what you are showing us here, if the carpet is relatively clean with no concealed issues you have a rug with enough value to substantiate the need for an in-person appraisal from a qualified professional which typically runs $250 for a formal letter. If your intention is to sell quickly however, that would be a different scenario.
ukwildcat Offline
#21 Posted : Tuesday, September 16, 2014 5:50:45 PM(UTC)
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Thanks RugPro. If I can find a reputable appraiser in the KY/TN area then I'll probably get that appraisal. I've enjoyed the rug for many years and if it's worth few thousand or so then I'll probably just keep it at enjoy it. If it turns out to be something substantial then I might consider a sale. I'm going to go back to my more or less original thread now that we've kind of put the silk question to rest. I'm enjoying this learning experience and I do appreciate you and everyone else that have posted.
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