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CWC
CWC Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, November 27, 2013 7:42:58 PM(UTC)
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Please help identify this rug.
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 7:09:15 AM(UTC)
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1 user thanked RugPro for this useful post.
CWC on 11/28/2013(UTC)
CWC Offline
#3 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:14:11 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Rug Pro. I will take and post photos as you suggested. In the meantime, how would a knowledgeable person describe the style of this rug? Is it a recognizable pattern? The field description and border, etc. I believe it is hand knotted and wool on cotton.
Sharafi & Co Offline
#4 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2013 6:16:59 PM(UTC)
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It looks very much like a double knot Pakistan but better photos of the back and fringes are needed.
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
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CWC Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:12:11 AM(UTC)
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Photo 1 light side view. Rug size approx. 110" x 76" without fringe
Photo 2 dark side view.
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image.jpg (2,762kb) downloaded 18 time(s).
CWC Offline
#6 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:22:41 AM(UTC)
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Photo 3 upper right corner
Photo 4 upper right corner tighter shot
Photo 5 upper right corner reverse side with quarter
Photo 6 drape of rug
File Attachment(s):
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image.jpg (2,430kb) downloaded 26 time(s).
image.jpg (2,078kb) downloaded 19 time(s).
Sharafi & Co Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:43:09 AM(UTC)
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None of your photos are of the back but I am almost sure it is an well made Indian piece.
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
www.sharafiandco.com
CWC Offline
#8 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:51:49 AM(UTC)
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Photo 6 is quarter on face (last post)
Photo 7 is quarter on same location on reverse. (This post)

Thanks. Hope these help with identification. The rug is not new and I was told it is Turkish and dates from the 1960's. I am especially interested in anything I can learn about motif of field as well as border. I have looked a a score of images on internet and not seen anything quite like this rug. Any help would be appreciated.
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CWC Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:56:45 AM(UTC)
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I think I posted several of the reverse with a quarter, but here is another.
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Sharafi & Co Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:57:57 AM(UTC)
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Ah i didn't see this one. While one cannot be certain of anything in the rug identification business, especially from photos but I can be certain that this is not a 1960s piece. I think it has about 10 years and if very well kept 20 years but that would really surprise me. It appears to be a Hereke. The design is from woollen Hereke. Initially I thought it was Indian or Pakistani with a mixed design but I was wrong. In any event it is a good piece.
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
www.sharafiandco.com
CWC Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 12:09:46 PM(UTC)
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Aside from condition, as we were told it was in excellent shape for it's reported age. Is there any reliable way to date these rugs by pattern. Thanks for your help.
Sharafi & Co Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 12:14:53 PM(UTC)
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Not really by pattern. But as you know any natural product reacts to its environment. Even if it is well looked after you will see some certain changes that do not appear on this rug. However, it appears that you have a lot of faith in the person that you bought it from. I don't know him but if you do and you are sure you can trust him and he is sure it is a 1960s carpet then it is. For me it is not.
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
www.sharafiandco.com
CWC Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:51:17 PM(UTC)
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First and only purchase. We bought the rug because we liked it and it fit our room and our taste. Since we knew little about these rugs, we had no idea what was better than anything else, other than our own common sense notion that finer weave and denser feel likely was a better rug. After we purchased this rug, I became curious about these wonderful craft works. My wife is very crafty, and does all manner of handwork, including some raven's tail weaving in the T'lingit tradition, as well as hand weaving on a loom. Curiosity lead to the web, and lots of reading and this site. Frankly, I was at a minimum trying to test the veracity of the seller, who seemed trustworthy, and after (not before) we decided to purchase the rug explained that it was Turkish, Hereke, wool on cotton and circa 1960's and in excellent condition. I did not ask him how he knew those aspects of the rug's provenance, we just took the information at face value not really knowing what it meant.

As I did more research, I learned that Turkish Hereke rugs are considered fine, and age, given similar condition, is inversely correlated with value - an excellent condition older rug is worth more than the same condition newer rug within limits, or so it seems. In part I learned this by fooling around with the value estimator on this site. That caused me to wonder whether the seller's representations were genuine. Again, we have absolutely no reason to doubt, but this seems to be a field of merchandizing well riddled with less that straightforward honesty and integrity!

Your confirmation that this rug appears to be, in fact, a Turkish woolen Hereke rug of good quality is reassuring, although if you told us it was something else we would still like it and be happy, we would just have considerably less faith in the seller. As to age, I guess, without any real knowledge basis, that age brings color and other changes to the visible warp threads and wear patterns on the rug generally. For my own interest, as well as others on this site, might you explain further, or direct me to research sources as to how to best age a rug. I recognize the this process is a good deal art as well as science, but any further info would be helpful. If certain further pictures might help, with better resolution lenses or better lighting (these were taken with an iphone with a flash), I would be pleased to post same. Thanks again. We really do appreciate your knowledgeable advises.
Sharafi & Co Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2013 5:37:47 PM(UTC)
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Well there are a lot of factors but most importantly it is experience and history of carpets. The subject is very vast. For instance as far as I know for the past 15 years there has been very little production in Hereke, which was the reason my mind did not go there to start off with, as your piece looked very new. Then knowing what colours the area usually uses. Of course you have exceptions but generally there are certain colours and characters that are used in each area. The material used, like the quality wool, dyes and fringes. Colour and type of warp and weft and condition. Some designs are woven at certain points in time. What the state of the back of the carpet is if it is quite smooth or still has a lot bits of wool. How the wool looks and feels.

Ultimately it boils down to experience and seeing enough pieces to compare and I dont mean 10 or 20 the more the better, preferably over a thousand pieces.

I am just trying to paint a picture I dont know if I have been successful.

Oh by the way at the end of all that it is only a guess unless you do carbon dating. Usually a very good and near enough guess.
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
www.sharafiandco.com
1 user thanked Sharafi & Co for this useful post.
madden13z on 12/18/2013(UTC)
CWC Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:38:33 PM(UTC)
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Your original thinking is this rug was a well made Indian piece. If it is actually as young as you believe, might it be a well made Indian imitation of a Turkish Hereke? Were such rugs made? If so, is there a definitive way to tell the difference?
RugPro Offline
#16 Posted : Thursday, December 12, 2013 5:09:59 PM(UTC)
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I don't think this is Indian. It could be several things, but the flatweave and cashmiring of fringe which appears to be original do not look Indian to me.
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#17 Posted : Friday, December 13, 2013 4:13:19 PM(UTC)
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The rug is a good quality turkish Hereke woo, rug. i don t think you will be able to find out the exact making date, but it looks like it was made between 1990 and 2010 (. Roundabout). Since the cost of labour was rising dramatically in turkish rug industrie dealers from turkey started to order well made rugs from india and china with hereke design. They have same design but different wool, different kilim ends and are more straight and very exact made. These "fake" Herekes are sold to tourists in "rug factories" in turkey.

Yor rug is original and of good quality.
Art Oriental - Djoharian fine oriental rug, since 1967
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CWC Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, December 18, 2013 10:45:29 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for your helpful replies. Can you provide an estimate of value for this rug? I assume in the trade there is acquisition value (wholesale), retail value ( in a given market) and insurance value ( whatever that is). What is the common relationship between these values in the current market environment?
CWC Offline
#19 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2014 8:45:01 PM(UTC)
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Opinions on value?
nick Offline
#20 Posted : Saturday, January 11, 2014 4:18:07 AM(UTC)
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Why ask again ? do you not believe what you were told?
CWC Offline
#21 Posted : Saturday, January 11, 2014 1:24:00 PM(UTC)
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I certainly believe what has been posted regarding the origin, age and quality of this piece; however, I had not previously asked for a value and none was given. Do you or any of the other qualified individuals who post on this site have an estimate or retail, wholesale or insurance value? Best regards, Chuck
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