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what is it?
byron Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, October 6, 2013 7:56:58 PM(UTC)
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I bought this rug years ago from a New York City store that was going out of business. I generally prefer tribal rugs, but was transfixed by this one. It stood out by its fineness, softness, and beauty of design. Looks like a "city" design, but has those tribal kilim ends! Owner labeled this as a Gashgahi (a tribe I later learned is most often spelled Qashqai). But looking at rugs on ebay recently, I've discerned some general characteristics of Qashqai rugs, and this rug bears no resemblance. Now I'm at a loss, and most eager to know what it is.

Is this a "vase" pattern, of the "floral spray" type? How to account for the flat-weave finishes? I read the RugRag expert's piece on Qum rugs, and he speaks of these kilim endings, shows an example. But I've never seen it otherwise. The fineness and high knot content may suggest this is silk, but I realize Qum rugs were woven with a fine wool as well. (I'd always assumed this was wool.) How does one discern between silk and wool?

Sorry I didn't place a quarter or ruler along the back. Will add that picture shortly. Rug is approximately 5x7.

Thanks for any help...knowledge, thoughts, speculation...

http://flic.kr/p/gr2baa
http://flic.kr/p/gr1q6F
http://flic.kr/p/gr2mqF
http://flic.kr/p/gr2v2P
http://flic.kr/p/gr2wjP
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TMC Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, October 7, 2013 1:30:30 AM(UTC)
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Hello,
This is an example of what is generally called a "tree of life" design. As you surmised, not Qashqai. I'm not expert enough to tell you where it was made.
africanoreuropean? Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 9, 2013 12:30:46 AM(UTC)
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I think you have a Gashgahi/Qashqai mille fleur, and a nice one at that. I'm not an expert, and have only seen pictures of this type.
As I stated, I'm not an expert, but I am jealous.
Sharafi & Co Offline
#4 Posted : Thursday, October 10, 2013 3:16:59 AM(UTC)
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The desing is a Kashkooli design. Kashkoolis are a subtribe of Qashqais and weave some of the finest pieces of that region. However this piece is a production piece and certainly is not Kashkooli or any of the Qashqai tribes. Excellent excecution. The weaving is very fine and if those green colours were not in it I would say definitely Persian. The Kelim (Gegim) end finish is something you usually get with old Qashqai kelims. None of the colours that I can see are from that region really. At guess and very much a guess I think this is a very controlled production from the Northeast of Iran depicting the Kashkooli design and their own colours.
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ruggist Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, October 13, 2013 5:56:42 PM(UTC)
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My guess will be Gouchan rug with distinctly Kashkouli design.
byron Offline
#6 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2013 9:00:42 PM(UTC)
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I want to thank all the posters for their invaluable input. The keywords "qashqai mille fleur" yielded a bonanza on google that excited me greatly (thank you africanoreuropean). There's the pattern! The prayer niche, with its multitude of flowers (the promise of a glorious afterlife for the faithful). The flanking potted "cypress" trees. The 2 small medallions, on either side of the archway. Finally, I have some frame of reference for what had been a mystery. And the retailer who sold it to me, identifying it as a "Gashgahi", might not have been off base after all!

I learned that the pattern is of Mogul origins...there's an 18th c. example of such in the Met museum. (I wonder if the Qashqai were attracted to the pattern because of the profusion of forms that dominate the field?) The google search highlights an interesting (though somewhat dismissive) discussion and comparison of 3 Qashqai renditions on Turkotek.com, and displays others that have been featured at various auction houses.

I even found 2 examples up on ebay right now that are based on this pattern, though neither is identified as a "mille fleur". One is simply a "hand knotted Persian Qashqai rug". The other is a "hand knotted Persian Kashkouli prayer birds rug".

It's kind of amazing to me, that in our information age, so little appears to be known about so many rugs, once they hit our shores. Maybe this adds to their allure...there is not much mystery left in the tangible world. Maybe the Western world is deliberately kept in the dark, for a variety of reasons. Why can't dealers tell us the exact provenance of a rug they acquired? Do the facts become obscure, as a piece wends its way through the marketplace? I guess it's naive of me not to realize that commerce means different things in the Eastern & Western worlds.

Mystery lovers are often avid sleuths as well, so yes, I want to know everything I can about the rug in my possession, and enjoy the process of discovery. If I had my way, I'd catch a glimpse of the human forms and faces of those that worked on its construction, while in the midst of doing so. Yes, it's paramount that one "loves" a rug, in itsself. But being able to connect in some capacity to its origins can only enhance and deepen one's appreciation, no?

Sharafi, thanks for the Kashkuli reference. You assert that the "mille fleur" pattern is a Kashkuli design (do you mean adaptation?)...is that because of the general fineness of their output? But at the same time, you don't believe this particular execution is either Kashkuli or any of the Qashqai sub-tribes? I can intuit that this is a "production" piece, but are there not such workshops in southern Iran? Especially now, when many of the nomad groups have been settled? How is rug production different in the Northeast? I was also confused about how the rug's colors entered into your determination. Though I don't see green in any of the Persian mille fleur pieces on the internet (most of which are antique), it seeems to be a prominent secondary color in many of the Qashqai pieces floating about on ebay, along with orange.

I have yet to learn about the Gouchan...

Besides its origins, I'm curious to know the rug's fiber content (wool, cotton, silk), the dye makeup (natural or synthetic) and the approximate age. I suppose these factors also provide clues to its origins. It appears to have red wefts, which I read is characteristic of Qashqai production. I've also seen images of the diamond-checkerboard ends displayed in other rugs attributed to the Qashqai. The density of the knotting appears to vary amongst the colors: the ivory knots seem considerably larger than the blue, which are so small they are difficult to distinguish. Do weavers sometimes use a combination of wool and silk for the pile? I've got some pictures now of the undersides, with ruler and quarter. A close-up of the pile fibers. And a few other details.

Knots:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10236397344/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10236402614/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10236650493/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10236632885/
Pile:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10234883724/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10234869514/
Selvage:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10234947534/
Ends:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10235121383/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10235219686/
Niche & Archway (viewed from top of rug):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10235223973/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10235148266/
Corner Medallion & Border:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10235218063/
Cypress Tree:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52384081@N08/10237805416/
byron Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2013 9:19:48 PM(UTC)
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Sharafi & Co Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 4:11:53 AM(UTC)
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I must say Byron I am impressed with your persistent research and thirst for knowledge. “Mille Fleur” (thousands or millions of flowers) is obviously a western term and has not been given exclusively to Kashkoolis of this pattern there is a Kerman design that is also known as Mille Fleur. This design is called “Yek Sar Nezam” by the Kashkoolis.

I am certainly not going to argue with the learned people at the Met Museum and dispute the origin of the design. Whether the design then came through to the Kashkoolis, who are almost the only group that weave this pattern, through the silk road or not is another matter. However they might have been attracted to it because of the sophistication of it as there are not many designs in the region as sophisticated as this and they usually weave some of the finest pieces in the region.

Oriental Rugs are a vast subject that no one person knows it all. You have people that specialise in a certain area or tribe and know a lot more than others about their subject. Your average dealer has to know about at least a little about all origins and that is not easy. However, he/ she should know a lot more than their clients. Most customers are not interested in history but how much discount they can get and if there were more people like you it might inspire them to put more information on the rugs or sites. Although some dealers are doing this on their sites now.
Telling the provenance of most rugs is not that difficult for a seasoned and knowledgeable dealer. It becomes more difficult with pieces like yours. Don’t forget these pieces are about human interaction with their environment, way of life and tradition. They are not produced by machines. For instance you have tribes migrating through town and villages and a lady may marry in to one of these tribes. The weaving that she does and patterns and colours she uses maybe different in that tribe and they may influence the other weavers in the tribe. The example is some Afshari tribes. So it is not so straight forward all the time.
If you like mystery you have picked the right subject, as there is a lot of mystery about quite a few pieces of distinction in this field.

As I said Kashkoolis are the people who adopted this design and as far as I know no other tribe or region weaves it apart from some exceptions like yours. They usually have cotton foundation and sometime wool and very rarely silk. I am convinced this is not from this region having seen your new photos. There is a lot of production going on in the south but none that I have seen that would produce something like this. The weave, structure and colour pallet is totally alien to this region. I am almost sure it is a Ghoochan production having seen the double selvages. The dyes I am quite sure are natural dyes, even the acid green. It seems to be woven on silk and has a gegim finish, which does give it a lot of character. I don’t think it is much older than 10 years old at most 20. When you go into realms of production like this, which I think was done for a western dealer then anything goes and in any event Ghoochan does use red weft as well. The weave appears to be uniform where it is different is where the technique of weaving changes at the ends.
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byron Offline
#9 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:19:58 AM(UTC)
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Sharafi, thank you for continuing to share your expertise, in helping me identify and better understand my rug. And, if your current thinking is on the mark, I have to give a shout-out to ruggist, who first floated the hypothesis that this is a Ghoochan (or Gouchan or Qushan, etc) production. Since the Persian adaptation of this pattern was almost exclusively executed by the Kashkuli (and I assume that all those attributed to the Qashqai are speaking in more general terms), there must be compelling reasons why both of you are convinced it does not emanate from that region. Having to do with structural elements, which are beyond my knowledge. But why Ghoochan? Obviously the pattern is atypical; I've gathered that indigenous Ghoochan are largely geometric, Caucasian-influenced. Is the affinity, again, structural? Is there a clue here, in something I read on a webpage?:

"Some rug merchands in Khorasan province, decided to weave some of the most beautiful Persian patterns and Caucasians patterns in city of Ghochan with help of Afghani refugees, because Iran has border with Afdhanistan, during the Taleban ruling many Afghans fled to Iran and many stayed in Khorasan province, where is near to the border. These Ghochanrugs were made by Afghani weavers, and all ate in awesome quality. I have seen some with Kpsi of more than 700, but the group that I am offering in my store have kpsi between 250 to 300 which are very fine and could be is high quality category. They also used phenomenal color combination, specialy the ones with Ferahan patterns. These rugs were made in a short times back in late 80’s and early 90’s, but production stopped in early 90’s. Because of their quality and pattern, these rugs became so popular, because they were made like antiques, some folks even rug dealers could be confused and could not distinguish if they were old or new."

May just be a seller's fantasy. But the idea that merchants from Khorasan Province embarked on a project to weave "beautiful Persian patterns" in Ghoochan workshops would stand to support ruggist's hypothesis, seconded by you. Now THERE would be a near-current example of how rug production is influenced by geopolitical/sociological forces, about which you spoke. But much as I love their output...were the Afghan weavers skilled enough to pull this off?

I purchased my rug 10-20 years ago, so it is (obviously) at least that old. Perhaps it was relatively "new" when I found it hanging at Central Carpet in NYC. That might place it in the late 80's to early 90's period quoted above. The preponderance of the rug looks pristine, untrammeled upon. But there seems to be erosion at the edges, a lack of uniformity, where the maroon pile meets the selvages. Is that just par for the course, to be expected with a hand-made rug? The double selvage you speak about--are you referring to the use of both blue and red fibers?

Silk foundation? The fringe fibers seem relatively course and are quite curly, as the images show. Are the fringes not the warp fibers? Am I betraying total ignorance here? I would never have associated them with silk fibers, which we think of as soft, thin and delicate. Is raw silk something entirely different?

Of course, I'd love any additional input from others who might shed some knowledge on this piece, even if they're stabs in the dark. And I'd be grateful for some expert input as to what this rug may be worth, if anyone cares to venture an opinion. The exact size is 7'8" x 5'4".

One final note, which I address to you Sharafi, as a rug merchant: When I went to the store to pick up my rug, the personnel went about "preparing" the rug for carry-out. That meant cutting the fringes! When I saw what was happening, I told them to STOP. This is the result of their handiwork, at lower left:

http://flic.kr/p/gKPkeW

I mean, really?

***************************
Two side notes:

(1) About the information that a seller or dealer conveys about his merchandise: Sure, I appreciate info, and it can get very specific on a site like ebay. The problem is...anyone can say anything! I'm especially skeptical about the claims sellers make about a rug's age. I mean, how do they know? And how do we know that they know? All of them are constructed using natural dyes, of course...though we learn elsewhere that the use of organic dyes virtually disappeared for much of the 20th century.

(2) Can someone explain to me, how to insert those boxed format modifiers like Bold or Italics, into one's post? I've tried.

Thanks to all,
Byron
Sharafi & Co Offline
#10 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 3:50:49 AM(UTC)
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Can I just first say nothing replaces actually seeing the Rug in the flesh and feeling it. However, with this piece the weave and the selvedges most of all then the fringe makes me be almost sure that it is a Ghoochan production. That sort of double selvedge is almost exclusively done in the Northeast of Iran with some exceptions from Northwest that the weave would be totally different. Ghoochanis have been doing curvilinear quite a bit since about 25 years a go but before that it was mainly geometric. The Caucasian influence is because they did migrate from central Asia to where they are there. However, that was from Turkmenistan where the design is not the same as what is commonly known as Caucasian.


In the carpet weaving renaissance that started in Iran about 30 years ago the Khorassan province like other regions did some very exceptional productions. Some of them pure silk and very very fine, unfortunately not all of these fine pieces are as they appear but that is another story. However, the Ghoochan production suddenly underwent a total change in terms of design and quality. It is true that a lot of Afghanis came as refugees and were/ are very good weavers that work in Iran and produce some very fine pieces. They are not many in numbers most of them went into manual labour rather than carpet weaving. As far as I know none of them produced Ghoochani goods. I have seen many of the Ghoochan production and the Farahan designs as well. While they are very nice and fine, maybe even finer than the original Farahan but as a used rug they will never attract as much demand as the original antique Farahan or are any where near them. They were mainly made with chemical dyes or what we call combination dyes, chemical and natural. No reputable dealer would have confused this production with the real thing.


It was not Ghoochan that was undertaking these sorts of fine productions but other areas in Northeast of Iran as well. This was mainly because farming in that region was failing and the production in late 80s and 90s was growing very fast and wages were very low in that region. We used to do some production there as well. We still do some production in the area because some areas you can find very good weavers that do not demand the sort of wages that other weavers that weave that quality usually demand and they are very skilled. It obviously could have been done by Afghani weavers but I doubt it very much.

I am not sure what the erosion on the edge that you talk about is, as I did not notice it in any of the photos so cannot really comment on it. Double selvedge is the edging along the length that if you notice is double the size or wider than usual rugs. You see that in Baluch and Caucasian rugs usually.


I have not seen the piece close up but from the images you had posted the fringe or Warp (Fibers or threats that run along the length of the carpet and knots are put on them)look to be silk. It could be raw silk which is a bit like shiny linen. But I could be wrong with that one.

In my opinion the replacement value of this rug is $1000 a meter.


The good news is what they have done does not effect the value of your piece but I cannot believe how badly they have done it and why would they do that if you had not asked for it. I assume that is because most customers rather have shorter fringes so it does not get in the way like heel getting caught in it or the fringes getting caught in vacuum cleaners. Just for aesthetic reasons I would have the fringe leveled out and if you keep it then it maybe an interesting talking point.

Forget ebay they well give you any spiel to sell their rug and a lot of pieces they call antique are no more than 10 years old but that is not just rugs on ebay. Telling a rugs age is purely a guesstimate which is why it is always given as a range unless it is dated or there is good provenance for it. Otherwise it is experience and knowledge of the history of where it is woven the colurs and designs used at different period of time. Looking at the back of the rug is very important and feeling the wool as the way colours mature and remnant wool on the back or the smoothness of it through aging for that weave are indicators of age. It is not just one thing it is combination of factors and a lot of experience and knowledge.

I shall leave the computer tech to more qualified people
First Floor, unit 9
1 Chandos Road
London NW10 6NF
UK
www.sharafiandco.com
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