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Can you help me with information on my rug!
michellemleys Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 3:51:09 AM(UTC)
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I recently purchased this silk 4x6 rug on cotton backing and wanted to see if someone could help me identify where it comes from, it's age, what the arabic writing means, and approximate value.

Thanks
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RugPro Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 4:07:47 AM(UTC)
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Hello, welcome to the forum.

Are you sure it is silk? I guess the cotton backing you may be referring to is a canvas backing as in a tufted rug? I'll be able to see better if you could post a picture of the back too.

From first glance, it looks like a highly treated wool pile, or possibly even mercerized cotton. It looks like there's an inscription there at the top of the rug. The design is a Turkomen / bokhara type. The oval shaped prints are stylized flowers which are known as "guls", sometimes even referred to as "the elephant footprint" design. These take many different forms. I would have to see the back of the carpet to give more info. As of right now, this could even be a mechanized manufactured piece
michellemleys Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 4:19:39 AM(UTC)
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Yes, I am pretty sure it is silk as a textiles professor confirmed the yarn quality. It is also hand knotted. And yes, I believe the cotton backing is canvas.

I attached pictures one additional picture of the end with the backing and two pictures of the back.

Thank you so much for your prompt reply!
RugPro Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 7:23:46 AM(UTC)
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I love it when people post really good quality images as you have done. It makes things a whole lot easier!

While I'm still suspect of the fiber used, it doesn't change the other facts about this rug. This is a hand knotted carpet. The rug appears to be a Pakistani weaving, probably something like 20 years old or so. What you mentioned as a cotton backing is actually what is best described as a cotton "warp". The warp simply put is what the rug is woven upon, or the skeleton of the rug. It runs vertically like harp stings spanning the entire length of the piece. Where you see the pile of the rug revert to the flat woven area (white cotton) is could loosely be considered a "kilim" The rug uses a symmetrical knot with no offset, and appears to be a double ply yarn used. The type of knot as mentioned is often confusing to some: it's not unusual for people to count both sides of the knot as separate entities, sometimes doubling the knot count by accident. Take a look at this post, and see the Ghiordes Knot (back view) picture. I also doctored your photo a little for an example of this knot.

Very interesting piece, I haven't seen one like it. While I cant decipher the signature, it may help attribute country of origin, which again, going by other characteristics of the rug seems to point to Pakistan. The signature does not necessarily add value, and might not even be a signature at all. That is to say, a fair amount of these inscriptions translate to gibberish.

Without a burn test on the wool, I'm a little suspect of the fiber. Part of the problem with valuing a rug online is determining fibers used. It could possibly be a wool pile subjected to a lemon wash, which gives wool fiber a high luster, and silk-like feel, or it could even be a mercerized cotton, although the close up photographs don't seem indicative of the latter.

Before giving a ballpark value, I just have a couple other questions for you:

1: The rug appears to be in good condition: Are there any stains, repairs, or dry areas which should be noted?
2: Could you count the knots for me? Try taking a look at this example of how to do so, remember you're looking at two sides of one single knot!
3: What sort of value are you looking to assign to this piece? There are several types; insurance, private party resale, retail showroom....
4: Finally, what is the exact size of the rug, excluding fringe?
RugPro attached the following image(s):
SingleKnot.jpg
michellemleys Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 10:06:21 AM(UTC)
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Hi There,

Let's see. Here is what I found.

1. The rug is in great condition, no stains, repairs, dry area's, or scent issues
2. Thanks for your example, this was really helpful. I counted 200 knots per square inch....
3. I was curious about retail showroom price
4. The exact size excluding fringe is 49" x 72"

Many Thanks

-Michelle
RugPro Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 10:32:10 AM(UTC)
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Seeing the rug in person and seeing it on the internet are two completely different things. Below is a very rough estimate for what would be considered a "fair market" value (or a reasonable value range at retail) for the item as described and evaluated from photographs. Remember, a true appraisal should always be done in person.

From my experience (many years retail, wholesale importation, etc.), something like this would be offered for sale in the vicinity of $700-1000, possibly a little more or less. The rug is in very nice shape, however, while the rug appears to be in excellent condition, it does show signs of slight use as there is some blooming of the pile and tips of the fringe.

Just for fun, I plugged in the information to the automated appraisal tool as seen below. The rug is recorded as good condition for the reasons outlined in the appraisal tool, same for pile height (accounting for slight blooming) However, it seems like your rug should be in the very upper range of each of these values as it's condition has been noted as modest (too bad there's nothing between good and excellent.)

Here's what the appraisal tool comes up with for a wool pile rug which has been treated to simulate silk (luster wash). Figure this translates to roughly $750

\Here's what the appraisal tool comes up with for a silk pile rug Figure this translates to roughly $875.

While the appraisal tool is really designed for entertainment, I think it would be fair to say the rug is worth every bit of $700, and even more depending on fiber content. If you told me you paid $1200, I woudn't necessarily say this is too much. It's a great looking rug. This is just my two cents. Overall, the rug is really quite attractive, and many people would love to design rooms around it. If the rug were in perfect condition as though it were cut from the loom yesterday, I would say double these figures.

I hope this comes as good information, but I think it would be a good idea to bounce off some other people as well. I'm not entirely familiar with this type of rug, but I think these are reasonable figures.

If you don't mind me asking, could you tell us a little more about how you acquired the rug and what you paid?

michellemleys Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 11:06:36 AM(UTC)
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Thank you so much for the info! It is always nice to know what region of the world these pieces come from. It also prompted me to count some other knot counts from other rugs around my house :)

I actually purchased the rug last weekend at a yard sale in Rhode Island from someone who had an amazing collection of antiques and they were downsizing their space. I paid about $150 for it, so, I am happy to hear that I did pretty well. It looks perfect in the room I purchased it for :)

Thanks



RugPro Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 11:14:59 AM(UTC)
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I would say you did a great job. A retail showroom price would be much higher than $150 (to say the least) for sure, even a private party price would be at least $300. It's really good to hear there are bargains to be had out there, although when it comes to Oriental Rugs, there are some bad burns to be had too.

On another note, it's important to understand the other types of rugs which are out there. This rug appears to be much higher than many rugs which are currently on the market. If you shop around, similar rugs which have this type of look are not nearly the quality of the rug as posted here. Some key terms to take a look at are "Jaldar" "double knotted rug" and "bokhara" (design) to name a few.

If you take a look around, you'll see many of these rugs go for as little as $150 or even less for the size you have, however, one of the most important factors to keep in mind is the quality at hand. Your rug is much higher in quality than those previously mentioned. Jaldar rugs (known as double knotted due to construction differences) are generally some of the lower grade Oriental rugs which are in production today. While they certainly can serve the purpose of any other rug, they won't stand the test of time as well. You can see how the designs of these rugs are very similar to the rug you have, but how the rug looks as a finished piece tells a different story. Your rug has far greater detail, higher kpsi and a nice finish to it.

Keep us updated on your plans with this rug, and other future purchases. Great find!
KrowGyrl Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 1:36:52 PM(UTC)
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I have not been able to open the photographs because they seem to large and are taking a long time to download. But I'd like to see the inscription. It is probably not Arabic, but rather Farsi (Persian) which uses the Arabic script but other than religious words, is a completely different language and root. The most common inscriptions are date and then a name signature. If it looks like a whole passage, then it will either be a Quran'ic passage or some sort of dedication to the person it was made for, in which case its definitely more interesting. If it is four individual characters not connected, then it's a number, a year. If it looks like script, then it's something more. Which of the pictures shows the inscription so I can try to download it another way?
admin Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 1:42:15 PM(UTC)
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Hi Krow, hopefully this works.

-David

admin attached the following image(s):
SignedRug.jpg
KrowGyrl Offline
#11 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 2:02:28 PM(UTC)
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Aha! Perfect. Thank you so much.
KrowGyrl Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 2:08:28 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, looks like a name, definitely not a date, definitely Farsi (they do some funny things with the letters you don't see in Arabic) And I think as a rule of thumb, you probably won't see Arabic per se on a rug unless it was Bedouin. Yes, same alphabet, Arabic script, but a whole different language. Of course it's also hard to tell with the pile, but if I had $100K riding on it, I'd say it a name, but some of the letters are scrunched together and so are not distinct.
cloudband Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, July 1, 2008 5:34:10 PM(UTC)
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Not sure on the writing. I would say Pakistan, wool pile on cotton (probably a lemon wash like pro said), BUT I'd say rugpro is high with his estimate. $500-700 retail in this condition, maybe 700-1000 new.

NetJim, what do you think on the fiber?

Glad you contacted us Michelle, and thanks for posting! :d/
David Dilmaghani
Oriental Rugs
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netjim Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:05:20 AM(UTC)
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Micelle wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I am pretty sure it is silk as a textiles professor confirmed the yarn quality.

Well, that leaves me with the impression that this professor has seen the rug first hand. If so, I suppose we should accept that. Certainly for our purposes and caveats it should suffice.

I wondered about wool with a lemon wash also but think I'll just leave it in the professor's hands. Angel
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